IG Rough Riders

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**Lord Solar Awesome**

NO WAY!! How is it even possible that horses could survive for more than 5 second on a battlefield? And even worse is the logistical nightmares they would bring with them. I think they should be replaced... with donkeys.

**Harriticus**

Well in all fairness the Soviets, Japanese, and Chinese all used Cavalry in WWII battlefields. The Soviet and Chinese armies also maintained non-ceremonial divisions of horse cavalry all the way until the 1990's. I guess the IG uses the same logic there.

**Volkov**

Well...the Polish actually made a cavalry charge against the Germans in WWII and were massacred. Cavalry can serve a real use in modern warfare, but its not as direct as you would think. The term is a light horse unit (as opposed to mounted or cavalry). Essentially it is infantry that use horses to travel then dismount to fight. I modeled my rough riders after this concept. I modeled cadians on horseback with extra packs on the horse and they are carrying the folding stock lasgun that comes with the vehicle accessory sprue rather than a stupid lance

**Harriticus**

Volkov wrote:Well...the Polish actually made a cavalry charge against the Germans in WWII and were massacred.

That's a bit of an urban legend spread by the Nazi's, fyi.

Apart from countless battles and skirmishes in which the Polish cavalry units fought dismounted, there were 16 confirmed[3] cavalry charges during the 1939 war. Contrary to common belief, most of them were successful.

The first and perhaps best known happened on September 1, 1939, during the Battle of Krojanty. During this action, elements of the Polish 18th Uhlan Regiment met a large group of German infantry resting in the woods near the village of Krojanty. Colonel Mastalerz decided to take the enemy by surprise and immediately ordered a cavalry charge, a tactic the Polish cavalry rarely used as their main weapon. The charge was successful and the German infantry unit was dispersed.

The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the battlefield, the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, alongside German tanks that had arrived at the field of battle only after the engagement. One of the Italian correspondents sent home an article,[4] in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with their sabres and lances. Other possible source of the myth is a quote from Heinz Guderian's memoirs, in which he asserted that the Pomeranian Brigade had charged on German tanks with swords and lances.[5] Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was disseminated by German propaganda during the war with a staged Polish cavalry charge shown in their 1941 reel called "Geschwader Lützow".[1] In that movie Luftwaffe Avia 534B trainer planes of Czech origin acted as Polish PZL-11 fighters. After the end of World War II the same fraud was again being disseminated by Soviet propaganda as an example of the stupidity of Polish commanders and authorities, who allegedly did not prepare their country for war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers.

Even such prominent German writers as Günter Grass, later accused of anti-Polonism by Jan Józef Lipski among others, were falling victims to this Nazi deception. Grass wrote the following passage, somewhat metaphorically, in his famous novel The Tin Drum:

O insane cavalry... with what aplomb they will kiss the hand of death, as though death were a lady; but first they gather, with sunset behind them - for color and romance are their reserves - and ahead of them the German tanks, stallions from the studs of Krupps von Bohlen und Halbach, no nobler steeds in all the world. But Pan Kichot, the eccentric knight in love with death, lowers his lance with the red-and-white pennant and calls on his men to kiss the lady's hand. The storks clatter white and red on rooftops, and the sunset spits out pits like cherries, as he cries to his cavalry: "Ye noble Poles on horseback, these are no steel tanks, they are mere windmills or sheep, I summon you to kiss the lady's hand".

On 1 September 2009 Sir Simon Jenkins accused Poles of "the most romantic and idiotic act of suicide of modern war."[6] On 21 September 2009, The Guardian was forced to publish an admission that his article "repeated a myth of the second world war, fostered by Nazi propagandists, when it said that Polish lancers turned their horses to face Hitler's panzers. There is no evidence that this occurred."[6]

Sources:
3. ^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n (Polish) Marcin Lewandowski (2005). "Szarże we wrześniu 1939 (Cavalry charges in September 1939)". Kawaleria II RP. http://www.kawaleria.marcin-lewandowski.xip.pl/szarze.php. Retrieved 2006-04-26.
4. ^ a b (English) Zaloga, Steven J. (1982). Polish Army, 1939-1945. Osprey Publishing. pp. 9–10. ISBN 0-85045-417-4. http://books.google.com/books?visbn=0850454174&id=AAdYFeW2fnoC&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&q=cavalry+charge+1939&vq=cavalry+charge+1939&dq=cavalry+charge+1939&sig=KmDdLB_4sroVSIz9Lc9HjjzpapM.
5. ^ (English) M Evan Brooks (2002). "The Polish Cavalry Charge". Military History's Most Wanted. Brassey's. pp. 330. ISBN 1-57488-509-X. http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN157488509X&id=Sx4gpzGDyxQC&pg=PA330&lpg=PA330&dq=cavalry+charge+1939&sig=bcyzlLh_k8AB24fnW6LAb0YPqLE.
6. ^ a b Jenkins, Simon (September 1, 2009). "End these bogus parallels. We are fighting no Nazis now". The Guardian (London). http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/01/afghanistan-war-on-terror-history. Retrieved May 22, 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry#cite_note-Kawaleria-2

**Volkov**

Apart from countless battles and skirmishes in which the Polish cavalry units fought dismounted, there were 16 confirmed[3] cavalry charges during the 1939 war. Contrary to common belief, most of them were successful.

The first and perhaps best known happened on September 1, 1939, during the Battle of Krojanty. During this action, elements of the Polish 18th Uhlan Regiment met a large group of German infantry resting in the woods near the village of Krojanty. Colonel Mastalerz decided to take the enemy by surprise and immediately ordered a cavalry charge, a tactic the Polish cavalry rarely used as their main weapon. The charge was successful and the German infantry unit was dispersed.

The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the battlefield, the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, alongside German tanks that had arrived at the field of battle only after the engagement. One of the Italian correspondents sent home an article,[4] in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with their sabres and lances. Other possible source of the myth is a quote from Heinz Guderian's memoirs, in which he asserted that the Pomeranian Brigade had charged on German tanks with swords and lances.[5] Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was disseminated by German propaganda during the war with a staged Polish cavalry charge shown in their 1941 reel called "Geschwader Lützow".[1] In that movie Luftwaffe Avia 534B trainer planes of Czech origin acted as Polish PZL-11 fighters. After the end of World War II the same fraud was again being disseminated by Soviet propaganda as an example of the stupidity of Polish commanders and authorities, who allegedly did not prepare their country for war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers.

Even such prominent German writers as Günter Grass, later accused of anti-Polonism by Jan Józef Lipski among others, were falling victims to this Nazi deception. Grass wrote the following passage, somewhat metaphorically, in his famous novel The Tin Drum:

O insane cavalry... with what aplomb they will kiss the hand of death, as though death were a lady; but first they gather, with sunset behind them - for color and romance are their reserves - and ahead of them the German tanks, stallions from the studs of Krupps von Bohlen und Halbach, no nobler steeds in all the world. But Pan Kichot, the eccentric knight in love with death, lowers his lance with the red-and-white pennant and calls on his men to kiss the lady's hand. The storks clatter white and red on rooftops, and the sunset spits out pits like cherries, as he cries to his cavalry: "Ye noble Poles on horseback, these are no steel tanks, they are mere windmills or sheep, I summon you to kiss the lady's hand".

On 1 September 2009 Sir Simon Jenkins accused Poles of "the most romantic and idiotic act of suicide of modern war."[6] On 21 September 2009, The Guardian was forced to publish an admission that his article "repeated a myth of the second world war, fostered by Nazi propagandists, when it said that Polish lancers turned their horses to face Hitler's panzers. There is no evidence that this occurred."[6]

I blame revisionist historians!

**Lord Solar Awesome**

I know they can ride horses to ferry supplies, but this doesn't make sense.

A: Horses are expensive to maintain
B: Vehicles are faster and can mount weapons

So they are useless when carrying suppies. Anyways the codex says they are combat horsies.

**Volkov**

I know they can ride horses to ferry supplies, but this doesn't make sense.

A: Horses are expensive to maintain
B: Vehicles are faster and can mount weapons

So they are useless when carrying suppies. Anyways the codex says they are combat horsies.

You ever driven a vehicle off road? You find real quick its difficult near impossible in some cases, the point is to use them where vehicles can't go.

**Happygrunt**

Plus, this WARHAMMER in space. It dosent have to make sense.

**Lord Solar Awesome**

Yeah I guess you have a point for off roading but you can use sentinals and most of the guard stuff is really durable anyway.

And they're still dumb for combat purposes.

**Grass4hopper**

Well the IG doesn't seem to be concerned about throwing troops in harms way, but a smart commissar wouldn't sent them against a Chaos Defiler.

I could see cavalry be usefull against Orks in rough terrain.

**Fafnir**

And Krieg war horses are little more than massive quantities of synthesized muscle, if I remember correctly. Something like that would be pretty damn good at traversing difficult terrain.

**Ashryu**

Rough Riders don't have to be horsemen right? I mean they could be IG on sturdily-built motorcycles maybe? ......not that I guess they would do a whole lot better against a tank or a defiler.....

**purplefood**

Imagine a man rushing you with a shaped charge on a stick. Not very scary right.
Now imagine the same man but on a horse. A horse with sub-dermal armour and bred to be the biggest nastiest piece of work you'll ever see, chem injections make sure he is angry and he weighs just more than the average car. And the man is still there, with his shaped charge on a stick.
They don't have to compare with tanks, they have to compare with infantry.

**Dark Apostle 666**

I like the idea of I.G on bikes, it's in the fluff too - hornet scout bikes.

**ChrisWWII**

Horses have lots of advantages over vehicles IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS, which is what Rough Riders are. They can move through rough terrain that no tank or wheeled vehicle could move through, and in those situations they can move faster than infantry, especially in an emergency. Furthermore, logisitcally horses are easier to take care of than vehicles. To take care of a vehicle you need: trained mechanics, spare parts, spare fuel, spare oil, and the ability to stop for hours on end to affect such repairs upon your vehicle.

Horse? In a pinch you need extra rations and water for the horse, and extra medical supplies, along with some basic grooming and care tools. All of which are rather light, and do not require stopping for extended periods of time. More importantly, if you're ambushed, you can just drop the hoof pick or whatever, jump up on the back of your horse and go into combat. That is something you can't do on a vehicle.

Not to mention, thanks to 40k technology, they have the technology to make a weapon to threaten a common foe (Marines) and they have a target to use it against, both things that aren't true on the modern battlefield.

**GalacticDefender**

I got marine scout bikers and put guardsmen on them for my rough riders. (and removed the bolters on the front). Makes much more sense than a fething horse.

**Dark Apostle 666**

Thats what i was considering doing, how does the scale look?

**Wyrmalla**

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/332654.page

They're a bit Judge Dreddish on scale, but if you use mostly scout biker parts and guard torsos etc they don't look that bad. Though there are plenty of other bikes out there by other manufacturers that are better scaled-or maybedo the old Dark Eldar jetbike to motorbike conversion?

**alphaomega**

Horses make a lot of sense in both reality and in 40k.
And for that matter who says it has to be a horse? What about a giant lizard? Or a mechanical animal etc.

Cav is still part of many forces.
It could be considered a stealthy approach, the Tallans use horse against Eldar often, why because the Eldars Scanning equipment doesn't see the fact they are on horses, rather than clearly identifiable vehicles that would have exaust traces and a lot of noise.
A mount would give you surprise in such an environment.

**Thatguyoverthere**

I always liked the concept of Rough Riders because in my mind they demonstrate some of the ruthlessness and desperation of the Imperium.

I enjoy the idea that whenever a general is planning a major campaign, he makes sure to stop by a couple of feral worlds conscripts some backwater warriors to use as cannon fodder. You probably don't even have to pay your new soldiers, or if you do finding shinny glass beads isn't too difficult.

**alphaomega**

Thatguyoverthere wrote:I always liked the concept of Rough Riders because in my mind they demonstrate some of the ruthlessness and desperation of the Imperium.

I enjoy the idea that whenever a general is planning a major campaign, he makes sure to stop by a couple of feral worlds conscripts some backwater warriors to use as cannon fodder. You probably don't even have to pay your new soldiers, or if you do finding shinny glass beads isn't too difficult.

Tbh I thought that was the IG in general. Don't pay them, they might survive then

Just give them everything for free, and claim their soul as a back payment afterwards

**Grass4hopper**

Like chromedog said over in the thread Wyrmalla linked to:

chromedog wrote:
And you can eat them if you need to.

Can't eat a tractor.

Plus horses can eat grass and leaves and other plants, so in a pinch (depending on the area of operations) they can feed themselves.

**halonachos**

Certain planets and certain armies use horses. Most notable are the Tallarn and Attilans.

The Attilans are a nomadic people and they rely on horses for survival, they even drink the blood of their horses if water is sparse.

The Tallarn live in a desert and probably couldn't fathom walking around on their own two feet.

Cadia is iffy because it's a fortress world and raising horses, let alone people, would be almost impossible.

Armageddon is a pollution choked world as is Krieg. Catacha is a deathworld so the horses would kill them.

Depends on the planet.

**Melkhiordarkblade**

I think horses are a good idea at times
Say there is a forest,and the enemy lines are behind it,your tanks can't go in and if your infanty goes in the enemies men in the forest will bog them down.

So send in the Cav,your nimble enough to get trough the trees,fast enough to throw the enemy of balance,and when your closing the gap on the enemy fast,he's going to send less time aiming and more time falling back,firing blindly as he does,you can just pick them off with a pistol or whatever,then when you and your men are coming up on the enemy lines you pull out the sub-machine guns and let it rip. At the same time your other guys have moved up unscratched.

**halonachos**

The biggest advantage of having rough riders is the fleet of hoof rule that they get and the one-time wallop they pack.

Basically the point of rough riders is to make one quick attack to take out a specific hard target and hopefully survive to harass softer targets.

If you play against the Tau, rough riders would be fantastic. Use the hunting lance to devastate a broadside team and then engage something in close combat to bog down the Tau firing lines.

**Lonecoon**

As my wife says "Horses are the original off road vehicle."

**chaos0xomega**

halonachos wrote:

Cadia is iffy because it's a fortress world and raising horses, let alone people, would be almost impossible.

You realize people are raised on Cadia... right?

Anyway, I think the OP was attempting to troll...

**halonachos**

chaos0xomega wrote:
halonachos wrote:

Cadia is iffy because it's a fortress world and raising horses, let alone people, would be almost impossible.

You realize people are raised on Cadia... right?

Anyway, I think the OP was attempting to troll...

And as I said its pretty tough to raise people on Cadia, especially when the last Eye of Terror campaign left it at ~50% chaos held.

**Luco**

Other possible source of the myth is a quote from Heinz Guderian's memoirs, in which he asserted that the Pomeranian Brigade had charged on German tanks with swords and lances

This isn't really out of place in 40k considering charges happen on foot with [power] swords.

Also keep in mind these horses aren't horses that you see at a petting zoo. War horses are massive and much more powerful than you might think. Draft horses for example are taller than a man at its shoulder, put this into 40k and add what genetic breeding or whatnot, add in that the Guard probably slaps on some kind of armor and you have quite a beast. If I only had something like a lasgun there's no way I'd stick around to get charged by one.

**SpankHammer III**

I always thought they made sense, don't get why so many people dislike the horses.

In 40k technology is at a premium, only the tech priest and their adepts have the fainest idea how any of it works. All the average guardsman is taught is basic operation and cleaning. Horses are probably easier to understand and maintain especially to attilans and the like who come from feral worlds and grew up using them. Also tednolgy is a precious thing, you can be shot for losing a lasgun, where as life (whether animal or human) is cheap.

Plus the DKK horses are just full on hard, seriously read the fluff those thing are gene bread, chemical fueled armored juggernaughts.

Personally i've never liked the idea of using bikes as Rough Riders because bikes have their own rules.