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~Angels~

Belial (TH/SS)

5X Deathwing terminator Squads, each with 3xThunder hammer/storm shield, 1x chainfist/cyclone, 1x twin lightning claws

3x3 ravenwing bikes, 2 meltas each, 2 squads buy a multimelta attack bike

1850 exactly

5 scouting bike units to take out turn 1 before 3 squads of termies deathwing assault into your backfield off of the bikes teleport homers. Thats assuming I dont go first

~templars~

emperors champion, suffer not the unclean to live

3x5 terminators, 2 cyclones each, tank hunters

4x5 initiates, lascannon/plasma gun, rhino

2 vindicators, PoTMS

comes out to 1814, depending on what you want for 35 points you can upgrade the vindys, or drop them for 4 typhoons, or whatever you felt was necessary. I went with the vindys for some anti-horde. I figured the equivalent of 16 lascannons was going to give me enough anti tank power. It also lets you take accept any challenge if youre really jonesing for the preferred enemy in place of the +1 strength. I liked the +1 strength because it works with tank hunter to create S10 pfists against walkers. Kanwall is a popular run in my meta so having squads that will maim kanwall is really nice.

Thoughts? iIfeel that both of these armies are really weak on horde control, but annihilate the mechanized metagame pretty nicely. Especially the templars. Longfang spam WHAT?!?!

Dark Angels definately. They are much better now with the new FAQ, Templars still need a new one to become competitive.

I like the angels list.

Termplars are mathematically more effective on missiles and the like thanks to tank hunters but you will alwais depend on these Rhinoed Initiates to score.

Deathwings gives you more versatility, you'll can profit by the Deathwing assault rule or just walk them in from you table edge. 5 identical untis for a good target saturation and these 3 bikes unit that can alwais be funny/eventually effective in dirty side shots.
Of course your're a little less shooting this way but I will certainly choose Angels instead of Templars.

Besides, talking about Angels, even if I like your Terminator weapons setup I will advice you to drop the twin LCs and to keep 4 of them in TH/SS setup with just the Chainfist on the CML thrower.

You're right about taking care of the mech, both of these lists are going to taking out transports left and right.

In all honesty I think the BT list has better horde control. Vindicators with PotMS can move 12" and still fire the cannon which allows you to find near perfect positioning every time. Plus once the mech is down the Cyclones can start firing blasts.

I'm glad I read the post twice to see your comments about the vow. I was going to suggest Abhor the Witch. You already have a lot of anti tank but if psykers are not part of your meta then it's useless.

Either list seems good though.

TakamineG wrote:You're right about taking care of the mech, both of these lists are going to taking out transports left and right.

In all honesty I think the BT list has better horde control. Vindicators with PotMS can move 12" and still fire the cannon which allows you to find near perfect positioning every time. Plus once the mech is down the Cyclones can start firing blasts.

I'm glad I read the post twice to see your comments about the vow. I was going to suggest Abhor the Witch. You already have a lot of anti tank but if psykers are not part of your meta then it's useless.

Either list seems good though.

I'm not a huge fan of abhor the witch, its better than nothing but really a 5+ to stop a psychic power? meh. If i didnt know grey knights were coming out soon I'd say id add a brother cap'n with a hood.

Toban wrote:Termplars are mathematically more effective on missiles and the like thanks to tank hunters but you will alwais depend on these Rhinoed Initiates to score.

Deathwings gives you more versatility, you'll can profit by the Deathwing assault rule or just walk them in from you table edge. 5 identical untis for a good target saturation and these 3 bikes unit that can alwais be funny/eventually effective in dirty side shots.
Of course your're a little less shooting this way but I will certainly choose Angels instead of Templars.

Besides, talking about Angels, even if I like your Terminator weapons setup I will advice you to drop the twin LCs and to keep 4 of them in TH/SS setup with just the Chainfist on the CML thrower.

I'd drop the claws too at this point, I was taking them on suggestion that itd potentially mitigate against warbosses with klaws, but in retrospect having more 3++ is the way to go. My friend has decided to build the deathwing and I'll be building the templarwing. His list is basically the above, but drops both attack bikes and one of the bike squads for 3 whirlwinds . Theres the horde control i wanted!

WW ?? oh my..

Tell him to save money!!

WW are maybe the worst available entry in the Marines army lists, doesn't matter which codex.

Just my opinion but I don't like them at all!!!

I'd suggest putting the Cyclone on the TH/SS terminator because you get a 3+ invul on it. You should definitely find some points to throw in an apothecary. Terminators w/ feel no pain and TH/SS are unbelievably hard to kill. You could throw in the Company Banner for the extra attack too which is always nice.

In fact, the most logical DEATHWING list at 1850, imho, could be this one:

HQ - Belial - TH/SS. 130
TR - Deathwing Terminators - 2x TH/SS - Apothecary with TH/SS - Banner bearer with TH/SS - 1x CML + TH/SS. 285

4x
TR - Deathwing Terminators - 4x TH/SS - 1x CML + TH/SS. 235

FA - 3x bikes - Meltabombs - 2x Meltaguns - 1x MM Attack bike. 195
FA - 2x Land Speeder MM+TML. 150 (vs hordes/blobs/swarms HB+TML at the same price)
FA - 2x Land Speeder MM+TML. 150 ( " " " " " " " " )

Missiles all the way with the Termies and the Speeders, a little but eventually anti-tank effective bikes unit for the Deathwing Assault deployment (tele. homer) and a massive use of the better melee combo available for CC Terminators.
I considered some Chain Fist, one per unit, but in fact it's really a shame drop the SS and in assault vs tanks, with all these THs I think everything will be ok anyway..

Versatility in all the deployment possibilities, very resistant infantry units and good fast attacks units that in the worst scenario will alwais be able to gain a cover save indipendently.

Obviosly effective vs light/medium armours thanks to the 18 Krak, at least scary for the higher armours thanks to the 3 Melta fast units (suicidables if necessary), equally effective vs hordes/blobs/swarms with the 18 Frag little blasts that normally must be enough to soften the enemy infantry before the CC assault fase.
And everything with at least LD9 (the regular bikers have 8 but the Serg. wouldn't die all alone I think.. ).

Toban wrote:In fact, the most logical DEATHWING list at 1850, imho, could be this one:

HQ - Belial - TH/SS. 130
TR - Deathwing Terminators - 2x TH/SS - Apothecary with TH/SS - Banner bearer with TH/SS - 1x CML + TH/SS. 285

4x
TR - Deathwing Terminators - 4x TH/SS - 1x CML + TH/SS. 235

FA - 3x bikes - Meltabombs - 2x Meltaguns - 1x MM Attack bike. 195
FA - 2x Land Speeder MM+TML. 150 (vs hordes/blobs/swarms HB+TML at the same price)
FA - 2x Land Speeder MM+TML. 150 ( " " " " " " " " )

Missiles all the way with the Termies and the Speeders, a little but eventually anti-tank effective bikes unit for the Deathwing Assault deployment (tele. homer) and a massive use of the better melee combo available for CC Terminators.
I considered some Chain Fist, one per unit, but in fact it's really a shame drop the SS and in assault vs tanks, with all these THs I think everything will be ok anyway..

Versatility in all the deployment possibilities, very resistant infantry units and good fast attacks units that in the worst scenario will alwais be able to gain a cover save indipendently.

Obviosly effective vs light/medium armours thanks to the 18 Krak, at least scary for the higher armours thanks to the 3 Melta fast units (suicidables if necessary), equally effective vs hordes/blobs/swarms with the 18 Frag little blasts that normally must be enough to soften the enemy infantry before the CC assault fase.
And everything with at least LD9 (the regular bikers have 8 but the Serg. wouldn't die all alone I think.. ).

Everything in that list is fearless...
You can only take 1 TML/ FA slot so the list is illegal. Always take the MM on the speeders, tailoring is bad and frag grenades will deal with horde well enough.
One bike squad will be a huge target, either take more than one squad or skip them and since they are competing with the insanely cheap MM/typhoon speeders I would try to use my termies without beacons.

Damn. You're right about the TML limitation on Speeders squadrons. That's horrible.
In this case:

HQ - Belial - TH/SS. 130
TR - DW Terms. - 2x Storm Bolter/Chainfist - Apothecary with TH/SS - Banner bearer with TH/SS - 1x TH/SS/CML. 295
TR - DW Terms. - 1x Storm Bolter/Chainfist - 3x TH/SS - 1x TH/SS/CML. 240
TR - DW Terms. - 1x Storm Bolter/Chainfist - 3x TH/SS - 1x TH/SS/CML. 240
TR - DW Terms. - 1x Storm Bolter/Chainfist - 3x TH/SS - 1x TH/SS/CML. 240
TR - DW Terms. - 1x Storm Bolter/Chainfist - 3x TH/SS - 1x TH/SS/CML. 240
TR - DW Terms. - 1x Storm Bolter/Chainfist - 3x TH/SS - 1x TH/SS/CML. 240
FA - Land Speeder - MM - TML. 75
FA - Land Speeder - MM - TML. 75
FA - Land Speeder - MM - TML. 75
Tot. 1850

For 2000 points games:
- drop 1x Storm Bolter/Chainfist Terms in the Belial's Troop and give him TH/SS;
- add a Venerable Dreadnought with ML/TL AC. 155 points.