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This might seem like a bit of a weird question, but does anyone else think that the codexes are deliberately built so that a balanced force will always be around 2000pts?

This is something me and several other people at my club have noticed - if you build an ideal small force with any of the new codicies, without looking at the points, it nearly always turns out to be about 2000pts. This is annoying as our club plays 1500pts! Then if you try to take 500pts off the list, or build a new list for 1500, you always have to sacrifice/gamble one aspect of the game such as defending your own objective or attacking the opponents :(

Am I talking rubbish, or has anyone else noticed this?

Both. I have noticed that the larger the points value, the better balance/more ideal the lists become (with 2000 pts seeeming to be the rough minimum for such a perfect well-rounded balanced list) but I think that has to do more with the inherent peculiarities of the army construction system rather than by design.

It's not that they are specifically designed to peak at 2000pts, but to get all your bases covered adequately you need to have a certain number of points invested in each area:

Troops for scoring
Anti-tank - Short Range
Anti-tank - Long Range
Anti-Horde - Short Range
Anti-Horde - Long Range
CC Specialists
Mobility / No Mobility

Just looking at those options you realize that to cover all of them you need at least 2k points, and sometimes that isn't enough. I actualy find 1750 to be the most balanced for my eldar, no top-heavy units, just effective role fillers.

Grim mate if you ever want a 2000pt game just give me warning and I'll see what I can do (unfortunately not this tuesday as I'm supposed to be on tournie practice detail).

Given that 1500 pts has long been the default standard for tournies/pick up games, I would guess that 2000 being the perfect 'covers all the angles' army list is about right.

It means that for most tournies/pick ups you have to make the decision to lose something. I prefer it this way as it forces you to think much more about your army selection - at 2k its too easy to just fit in everything you want.

GW has stated a multitude of times that the game is designed around and balanced at 1500 to 2000 points. If I'm not mistaken it even says this in the big rulebook.

If their designed for 2000 points, why does the main GW (or only GW?) UK tournament have to be at 1500 points

1500 pts vs 2000pts is a faster game. 25% more points =25% more units/guns/CCW/dice rolls/etc per turn, potentially.

oni wrote:game is designed around and balanced at 1500 to 2000 points

rodgers37 wrote:If their designed for 2000 points

it's played at 1500 points because it's a) the lowest point value the game was intended for, and b) better generals do more with less. sadly, yes, some codices are better at lower point values because of some intrinsic well-roundedness.

40k is designed to have you make choices when making an army list. The game is mostly play tested at 1500 points, although they do play test at other point ranges as well.

The reason why it feels 2k is the best is because you don't have to THINK when making your list. You can just shove whatever you want in without any strategical thought. 1500 points turns 40k into a thinking man's game, while anything higher turns into two babys mashing hotwheels together for 3 hours.

1500 forces you to compromise and choose wisely.

1500 points makes you choose between "wants" and "needs".

The three posts above mine perfectly sums up what I like about 1500 or 1750 games.

Yep, you need to make choices at 1500 and 1750, heck even 1850.

As for my Orks, I find 1500 a nice range since it does force some choices. When I get up around 2000, that's just a lot of models for me, especially since I don't quite have the Trukks and Wagons I'd like. I suppose I'll just have to get more models to field fewer models.......hmmmm......that just sounded odd.

What I have found is that at 1500pts the game is much less balanced, particularly for any of the older codices with weak/terrible/expensive troops. At that points level there is far too much randomness in army matchups, the game is too paper/scissors/rock as you can't fit enough stuff in to cover all your bases once you fit in the mandatory 1 HQ/2 Troops. If you take enough anti tank to deal with a list which spams vehicles then you haven't got a hope of fitting in enough anti infantry to deal with hordes. This is never a good thing for anyone involved, even if you are outmatched and in a bad matchup you at least want to be able to compete.

On the other hand at 2500pts you can just take everything you want and it flips things the other way by giving an advantage to a different bunch of codices which can scale up effectively. 2000pts is the nice middle ground where you can take enough of everything so that you can at least have a chance against any other list no matter the build, but can't totally overload on hammer units (without shooting yourself in the foot in other areas anyway).

I know there are plenty of people who say that GW playtest at 1500pts, but there is nothing to suggest that this is particularly current/accurate information. They certainly used to playtest at 1500pts, but the Studio is much less open now so I don't think we know exactly. Certainly I think its foolish to claim that GW ONLY playtest at 1500pts now. However given the streamlining that occured with 5th edition (which meant the game played faster, which is a major limitation on tournament games) and the major shift in design ethos towards producing codices which all fluffy, interesting and competitive it certainly seems like GW are moving towards producing codices which have sweet spots closer to 2000pts than 1500pt. It actually doesn't matter whether they intend this to be the case or not, we are the ones who play the game and as such the ones who really decide what points level we play at.

1500 is the standard tournament size in the UK (and Europe?) while in the US most tournament run at 2000pts. This is probably to do with the fact that GW still have some involvement with the UK tournament scene and haven't changed things much for ages, while the US scene is now independent from GW so has changed a bit to adapt to 5th edition and general popular demand.

GW balances 40k at 1500pts and Fantasy at 2000pts. Whether you enjoy those point ranges is entirely up to you though.