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If he joins a unit of terradons, wouldn't they lose fast cavalry and the ability to vanguard?

I don't think he can join a unit of terradons. Characters may not join units of flyers (among other things) and no exception is made for characters that are already flyers.

I'm not in front of my books, or I'd slide you a quote. Not sure how this works for TiqTaqTo or whatever his name is. If I remember right, he had some rule about bringing Terradons on from a table edge...

The rules for terradons clearly state that if a character has it as a mount he can join a terradon rider unit (lizard book page 52).
As a character on a monstrous mount follows the rules for monstrous cavalry then the chief on bird is monstrous cavalry, since the terradon has the fly USR that makes them fast cavalry (BRB page 70 flying cavalry sub-rule), and all fast cav get vanguard (BRB page 68).
So the chief can join a unit of terradon riders and then vanguard with them.

Thanks Hover. Didn't realize there was a more specific rule in the Lizard book.

I figured out that he can join the unit.

Here's the problem - I don't think the character has the flying cavalry rule. Fly doesn't give fast cavalry (pg. 70) unless you are flying cavalry. Therefore the character doesn't have fast cavalry and he is a character joining a unit of fast cavalry without the rule, and per page 68, the unit loses fast cavalry....

A charracter on a monstrous beast mount is unit type monstrous cavalry all cavalry with the Fly USR is fast cavalry, and thus has vanguard. /discussion

I don't see any basis for saying all cavalry that fly are flying cavalry.

The rule itself says:
"Some units . . . have the flying cavalry special rule - a particularly effective type of flying unit. In rules terms, flying cavalry are treated as fast cavalry with the fly special rule."

Just because you are cavalry and fly doesn't mean you are flying cavalry...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you think Dark Elves on Dark Pegasi get a vanguard move?

OK then lizardmen book page 91, the "lords' and heroes' mounts" box.
Please read to me the first rule given for the terradon.

Glad to see you added to the discussion after your peremptory ending of it... But you apparently don't like typing out the rules as I did for you....

I, on the other hand, acknowledge that I did miss the bit on pg. 91. I feel like I've seen something that would mean that gives the character fast cavalry, but right now, pg. 82 BRB is saying that would not give the fast cavalry rule to the character. Maybe you can point me in the direction of more reading to contradict that... Since you've already gotten the rules wrong twice here, I'd like the pg number.

I'm confused... can you spell out what you're saying, Hover, (with the rules quote if possible) to make it clear?

"Just because you are cavalry and fly doesn't mean you are flying cavalry..."

Now that's some funny stuff.

Warpsolution wrote:"Just because you are cavalry and fly doesn't mean you are flying cavalry..."

Now that's some funny stuff.

True my bad, but page 91 of the lizard book does say terradons are fast cav, and page 68 of the BRB says fast cav automatically have the vangauard USR.

Pg. 82 of the BRB says that special rules of a mount do not apply to a character.

The character riding the terradon does not have the special rule fast cavalry.

The fast cavalry rule on pg. 68 says that if a character without the fast cavalry rule joins a unit of fast cavalry, they may not vangaurd...

Killjoy00 wrote:Pg. 82 of the BRB says that special rules of a mount do not apply to a character.

The character riding the terradon does not have the special rule fast cavalry.

The fast cavalry rule on pg. 68 says that if a character without the fast cavalry rule joins a unit of fast cavalry, they may not vangaurd...

So a wood elf on a steed (which has the fast cav rule) loses it when a character rides it? I think not.
The mount wouldn't get an elfs hate/frenzy ect, but the character would be fast cav if mounted on a fast cav mount.

Now, the question is, while the Terradon unit says flying cav, does the entry for the terradon as a mount say flying cav?
Goblin Wolf riders have this problem; wolf riders are fast cav, while wolves are not.

-Matt

The entry for terradon riders is as follows, as per the FAQ

Page 52 – Terradon Riders, Special Rules Replace “Flying Cavalry” with “Fast Cavalry, Fly, Forest Strider”.

Now, the question is, while the Terradon unit says flying cav, does the entry for the terradon as a mount say flying cav?

On page 93 of the Lizardmen codex it merely states that a Skink Chief may select one of the 3 mounts, with prices listed. Those mounts are Stegadon, Ancient Stegadon, and Terradon. It does not list a page number for where to find the rules, nor does it give you any statistics for them.

That means 1 of 2 things:
1) There are no rules for any of those mounts for Skink Chiefs, and therefore they cannot select them as mounts
2) The rules for each mount are listed under the entries in the codex for each type

One of these options leads to an absurdity, the other does not. If you are making the argument that a Terradon a Skink Chief uses as a mount is not the same as the Terradon that the "Terradon Riders" has as a mount, then you would be making argument 1.

Lehnsherr wrote:The entry for terradon riders is as follows, as per the FAQ

Page 52 – Terradon Riders, Special Rules Replace “Flying Cavalry” with “Fast Cavalry, Fly, Forest Strider”.

Now, the question is, while the Terradon unit says flying cav, does the entry for the terradon as a mount say flying cav?

On page 93 of the Lizardmen codex it merely states that a Skink Chief may select one of the 3 mounts, with prices listed. Those mounts are Stegadon, Ancient Stegadon, and Terradon. It does not list a page number for where to find the rules, nor does it give you any statistics for them.

That means 1 of 2 things:
1) There are no rules for any of those mounts for Skink Chiefs, and therefore they cannot select them as mounts
2) The rules for each mount are listed under the entries in the codex for each type

One of these options leads to an absurdity, the other does not. If you are making the argument that a Terradon a Skink Chief uses as a mount is not the same as the Terradon that the "Terradon Riders" has as a mount, then you would be making argument 1.

Does the lizardmen book have a summary in the back, or a section with stats on all the mounts?
What I'm suggesting is that #2 is the answer, as long as their isn't any addition information. My lizzy book is in California (and I am not), so I am not being obtuse, I'm just making sure we have all the bases covered. GW has a half dozen or so different formats for their books, so it's important to double check.

-Matt

Killjoy00 wrote:Pg. 82 of the BRB says that special rules of a mount do not apply to a character.

BRB FAQ wrote:Page 82 – Cavalry, Cavalry and Special Rules
Add “If the mount has the Fast Cavalry special rule, then the
whole model has it.” to the list of exceptions.

Great, thanks Hover! That's what I needed (3rd times the charm

Glad this is settled.

Matt, I realized this morning that my post looks like it was directed solely at you. It was not, and I apologize for the way in which I wrote it. I was saying the word "you" in reference to the general warhammer population, and not you in particular. I knew what argument you were making, and I was in agreement with it, I just didn't write it clearly enough.

Gents,

Kudos to all on a good rules debate. I learned something by reading it, and give a big thumbs up to the use of rules quotes, good reasoning, and general civility.

Thanks all,

RZ

Lehnsherr wrote:Glad this is settled.

Matt, I realized this morning that my post looks like it was directed solely at you. It was not, and I apologize for the way in which I wrote it. I was saying the word "you" in reference to the general warhammer population, and not you in particular. I knew what argument you were making, and I was in agreement with it, I just didn't write it clearly enough.

No problem, I thought my statement was a bit rough, so I was just clarifying.

-Matt

Red_Zeke wrote:Kudos to all on a good rules debate. I learned something by reading it, and give a big thumbs up to the use of rules quotes, good reasoning, and general civility.

What yo say 'bout my momma!?

HoverBoy wrote:
What yo say 'bout my momma!?

That she is exceedingly polite, has raised a nice young man, and bakes delicious cookies. I am pleased to make her acquaintance...

:: sniffs:: cookies? Where?

HawaiiMatt wrote:So a wood elf on a steed (which has the fast cav rule) loses it when a character rides it? I think not.
The mount wouldn't get an elfs hate/frenzy ect, but the character would be fast cav if mounted on a fast cav mount.

Now, the question is, while the Terradon unit says flying cav, does the entry for the terradon as a mount say flying cav?
Goblin Wolf riders have this problem; wolf riders are fast cav, while wolves are not.

-Matt

I think the wood elf character on an elven steed not being fast cavalry was a problem previously, but unless I'm mistaken the FAQ added the "fast cavalry" description to the mount itself, not to a unit, as you pointed out:

Wood Elf FAQ wrote:Page 30, 53 – Elven Steeds
Add "Special Rules: Fast Cavalry."

So that's what solved it for the woodies!

Damn, checking 54 lists meant i missed a nice, civil discussion.....!

Good use of some rather good FAQs. Looks like the same style is being used over on the 40k side as well, which is a good thing,

Aye 40k might be worth playing again if they keep it up.