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I hear a lot of talk around here about "units making their points back". This is a perfectly good argument. My question is does a unit have to kill in order to "make back its points"? Can a unit merely being a distraction cause it to make its points back?

My scenario:
I'm facing daemons with my salamanders. 1500 points. He goes first and drops a fateweaver and a daemon prince right in front of my lines. I move up my crusader and unload 8 TH/SS termies to take care of those two. Turn two he drops a second daemon prince behind my lines (a combat squad with lascannon and a pred). Since my termies are stuck in with the duo from hell, my crusader does a 180 and gets in range of prince #2. After firing all three of those units at him, I cause one wound. Next turn he assaults my Land Raider and explodes it. The Prince takes another wound from the explosion, and in the subsequent shooting phase, the combined fire from the rest of my backfield takes him down.

So my question: did my Land Raider Crusader earn his points? Without that distraction, that daemon prince would have dismantled my entire fire support field. I know my land raider is worth 4x the points, but does his protecting my support field earn him a medal of honor? IMO it does.

P.S. We tied for objectives, but I won in KP

Im not a big fan of the concept that units have to make heir points back especially now in the objective driven game as opposed to kill points. i have won games where i did not completely kill a single enemy unit and took pretty heavy losses myself but because i was able to distract my opponent and claim 1 more objetive than he i won.

If I recall correctly, the idea of a model or unit making its points back was more of a 4th Ed (and maybe before, but 4the Ed is when I came into it) bit tied in with the use of victory points which were geared toward the point cost of a unit.

So, if you had a 200 point Tactical Squad and it didn't beat up about 200 points of your opponent's stuff, you thought twice about taking them. With Kill Points coming in and more games based around objectives and only Troops counting as scoring, the idea has become a little outdated.

Pretty much as Lord of Corn indicated, the considerations in 5th are a little different than those in 4th. You can still use it as a benchmark if you wish, but it's certainly a more general one now than it was a few years past.

MrGiggles that is something I have never heard of before. I have only played in 5th ed. Thank you for the insight.

MrGiggles wrote:If I recall correctly, the idea of a model or unit making its points back was more of a 4th Ed (and maybe before, but 4the Ed is when I came into it) bit tied in with the use of victory points which were geared toward the point cost of a unit.

Right. "Making one's points back" was crucial back in the day when only points matter.

Nowadays, it's obviously more nuanced. Really, you've got to ask yourself if the unit did X points worth of helping you complete your objectives for the win. This is obviously much more subjective now than it used to be.

For units whose primary responsibility is laying down firepower, thinking about earning its points back is still a useful way of thinking about them, but even then, it's still more complex. For example, guard stormtroopers are unlikely to kill their points back, but their ability to show up out of nowhere is also very useful, making them overall worth taking in my opinion.

As for the Crusader, well, he earned half a demon prince worth of points from what he killed, so you can start with that. The real question is if he hadn't died, would you have still taken the DP out the next turn anyways? If the answer is yes (which I'm guessing it is), then that definitely cheapens the sacrifice. I can't comment without the specifics, but I'd say the crusader at least wins a consolation prize.

I think "making one's points back" is strictly defined as how many points worth it kills over the course of the game. However, I don't think its an entirely relevant concept anymore. I'm rather fond of a 2 model squadron of deepstriking MM/HF Land Speeders. 140 Points. I'll use them to kill a high value target, which usually means a vehicle that can cause large amounts of damage to my army if left unchecked. Some of these units are cheaper than the squadron, such as the IG tank with the Chem Cannon.

They'll usually die after one turn of shooting, but the range on the MM plus the the reliability of two of them usually makes sure the job gets done. I'm willing to pay more than the points I might make back to ensure the destruction of my target.

It's not so much about making the points back as it is the need to fulfil their job.

Even if it isn't making their points back. If you pay 200 pts for AT and it kills 100pts of tank, then it has done it's job.

I have always laughed at the ridiculous notion that units have to make their points back to be worth taking.

I admit, this idea may have held some merit back in 4th edition, but in 5th edition I am amazed people still go by this false mantra.

To win a game, you need to fulfill an objective. If your collection of units are able to do so, then the units you have chosen are worth taking.

Taking a 800 point Nob unit and expecting them to make their points back is pretty funny in and of itself. It will rarely, if ever, do so, but the impact of fielding such a unit is well worth the points spent on them.

It's not a worthless idea, though.

How do you know if something is chronically underperforming, and should be removed from a list so that the points can be spent on something else?

Being able to assign a points value to its usefulness in a game (combining stuff it killed and arbitrary points for other stuff as you see fit), and comparing it to the cost is still a useful tool in weeding out crap from your list.

The thing is you don't win games by everything making it's points back (well sometimes it is but not every game, and most certainly not every unit). You win the game by taking objectives or by eliminating units. Throwing a 240pt Trygon prime to kill a 5 man scout squad in close combat that are holding the your opponents objective is well worth it if it wins you the game. Keeping your 10 gaunts in cover and GtG while doing nothing is worth it if they deny that final KP to your opponent.

For me I focus on what wins the game. If a unit making it's points back coincides then so be it. Just remember it all comes down to KP's or objectives at the end of the day.

Commander Endova wrote:I think "making one's points back" is strictly defined as how many points worth it kills over the course of the game. However, I don't think its an entirely relevant concept anymore. I'm rather fond of a 2 model squadron of deepstriking MM/HF Land Speeders. 140 Points. I'll use them to kill a high value target, which usually means a vehicle that can cause large amounts of damage to my army if left unchecked. Some of these units are cheaper than the squadron, such as the IG tank with the Chem Cannon.

They'll usually die after one turn of shooting, but the range on the MM plus the the reliability of two of them usually makes sure the job gets done. I'm willing to pay more than the points I might make back to ensure the destruction of my target.

Agreed, I use two MM/HF speeders in a vulkan list. They drop/zoom in and blow up/torch something important that hamstrings my opponent. They usually present themselves as a threat and die quickly after. I am usually going to lose the 140 points but the distraction they pose while my opponent is focused on them and then being in a predicament when they are gone is well worth it. I also run 2 vindicators(usually as a pair) and rarely do I ever get to plaster a unit with them(they killed 1 marine my last game). But I am willing to pay 240 points to block off an entire flank and dictate his movement. A units worth isn't about points as much as it is about utilizing its traits. For the vindicators its using the intimidation they can cause, most people won't make the effort to move within their range which causes some units(objective holders) to become isolated and vulnerable to being overtaken and can give my units a invisible bubble that keeps me from getting bogged down.

The allies lost a lot of men on D-Day, it was a heavy cost to pay but by accomplishing that mission it led to winning the war.

It's extremely difficult for the Tervigon to 'make it's points back'. It would be silly to say he's under performing on that basis however. Handing out Feel No Pain, spawning Termagants, being synapse, T6 W6 monstrous troops choice sitting on an objective, dirt cheap adrenal glands/toxin sacks to almost unlimited numbers of troops? The guy's a beast and nobody should leave home without him, but his 'job' isn't to make his points back. To sit down at a board meeting after the game and tell the Tervigon his sales figures are slipping and fire him is foolishness.

That's just one example, there are many more. It's an antiquated idea that never even really had a place when it was around.

It's really just kudos to you now. If something dies you can think, well at least he made his points back.

There's also the idea of the Ork forcefields. If they stop you losing the equivalent points worth of Orks then it was probably worth doing.

I think today with some of the synergies you get, Fateweaver’s re-roll of saves. Sanguinary Priests Feel no pain.
Farseer’s Doom and Guide an so on. It's very hard to apply it to.

So yeah if your thing dies and has made its points back give yourself a tap on the back. If not don't be too disappointed