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Seeing as the models for these are still showing up on auction sites, plus they'd give great opportunities for building/modding I wanted to come up with a rules set for using them. I couldn't find the original rules so came up with my own combination. The key thing for robots is orders. You'll pay for them before the battle starts and then have to stick with them as the game progresses. Anyway, what does everyone think?

Imperial Robot - 90 points – Elite

WS4 BS4 S5 Armor F13 S13 R10 I4 A2

Vehicle (Walker)

The robot has three weapon hard points. All three must be selected.

Options (hardpoints)
Stormbolter or twinlinked ripper gun - Free
Multilaser – 5 points
Heavy bolter, Heavy flamer, Multimelta or Autocannon - 10 points
Lascannon – 20 points
Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon – 25 points
Dreadnought class close combat weapon – Free
Seismic Hammer – 5 points

Additional Rules
Target Priority – Can be as simple as vehicle, infantry or command, or as specific as a certain unit type. When selecting from multiple targets, prioritized units in LOS are selected first. Only one priority can be selected.


Orders
A robot is programmed before reaching the battle field. Please select up to 5 orders from the list below, and list them in any order. This represents your robots programming. When the first possible programming step conditions has been met the order sequence ends. If none of the selected step conditions are met the robot is inactive for that turn. When multiple targets meet the conditions for a programing step, the closest target is always selected. A robot engaged in close combat will remain so until the target is destroyed, irrespective of other orders.

1) If enemy in charge range – move, assault, fire if possible
2) If enemy in firing range – fire
3) If enemy in LOS – move towards enemy, fire if possible
4) If no enemy in LOS – move then run towards enemy table side.
5) If under fire, defensive stance – move towards nearest cover, return fire if possible
6) If under fire, offensive stance – move then run towards nearest enemy
7) Maintain support – perform the same actions as preselected friendly unit
8) Take and hold – move towards nearest undefended control point, fire if possible
9) Screen – If enemy targets are approaching or firing upon preselected friendly unit, move to block assault or fire lane. Fire if possible.
10) Block – If enemy targets are approaching or firing upon preselected friendly unit, move towards unit. Assault if possible, Fire if possible unless doing so would deny assault.

I want to say that I respect the time you probably took to write up these rules and the fact you like the models and want rules to match them.
That being said, these rules are way, way, way too complicated for normal use in 40k. Just looking at them gave me a rules headache, I can imagine an actual game with them.

Now, the constructive part is suggestions on how to fix the rules to make them something resembling playable:

1) Allow only 1 per army and beef up the stats a bit. This is the simplest change, but also doesn't address much of the complication, just limits it to only 1 model.

2) Remove some options or make them special rules instead of options. ie, just give them a multi-tracker so they can fire multiple weapons, don't make them an option.

3) Make specific packages that allow different roles, but make them more standard. ie.

"Protector"
Weapons
2x Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon
1x Assault Cannon
Strikes at Initiative 4
Orders 1 and 10.

etc.

Thanks for the comment, I've simplified it a bit. Also, based on the 5 GW models, here are some templates.

Colossus Siege Robot - Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter, Siege Hammer. Orders 1,2,3,4 - 105 points
Castellan Assault Robot - Heavy Bolter, 2 DCCW. Orders 1,3,4,6 - Target Priority Walkers - 100 points
Conqueror Anti Armor Robot - Lascanon, Multimelta, DCCW. Orders 8,2,3,1 - Target Priority Vehicles. 120 points
Crusader Assault Robot - Assault Cannon, 2 DCCW. Orders 1,3,8 - 115 points - Target Priority Troops
Cataphract Support Robot - 2 Lascannon, DCCW. Orders 9,7,2,3,8 - 130 points

For the weapons and such, do those look reasonable compared to a dreadnought?

Looks like a great idea. I missed the imperial robots. Any AdMech Codex should include it.

I suggest BS WS 3 instead of 4, as a servitor. 4 is Space Marine /Dread skill. They should be significantly cheaper than a dread too.
Follow the GW models instead of "do your own robot" is sad but simpler. Sounds good.

Orders sound cool but complicated. And it is the way they work fluff wise. However there should be a way to make them simpler.
Good job!

I really do like these guys I must say, personal favorite of mine is the Crusader, like a big ol' robot Preying Mantis.

http://www.solegends.com/citcat911/c2025smrobots-h.htm

I think the front and side armour should maybe be 12 rather than 13.

Depending on what type of robot it is, say either an assault or support, have a higher WS and lower BS.

For example a Crusader Assault Robot:

WS4 BS3 S5 Armor F12 S12 R10 I4 A2

Assault Cannon
2 x Power Weapons (as per the mini)
May re roll failed to hit.

Pehaps you could have something like the Chaos Dreadnoughts Crazed table.

6: System error - the robot may act as normal this turn but may only move or shoot next turn as it's system is reset
2 - 5: System stable: the robot acts as per its programming.
1: System shutdown: the robot may not move or shoot this turn as its system reboots

This is more of a chaos thing, the imperium would NEVER use artificial intelligance afer being nearly wiped out by them.

Imperial Robots don't have AI in the way that they can think for themselves, they are programmed to carry out certain orders.

According to Chapter Approved they are still used

Warhammer 40,000 Chapter Approved
Legio cohorts are occasionally attached to campaigning Marine Chapters, such as during Operation Carthage (the Second Pacification of Isstvan V). When the Desert Lions Chapter took the planet's defence forts they were preceded by a complete Legio Cohort of Robots. The Robots had been programmed to advance in an apparently mindless fashion, and proved easy targets for the defenders. However, the Desert Lions used the opportunity to map out the defenders' fire-plans and blind spots. In the Lions' ensuing assault only seven Marines were lost.

Chapter Approved is old now though, but still a great read

winnertakesall wrote:This is more of a chaos thing, the imperium would NEVER use artificial intelligance afer being nearly wiped out by them.

Pilau Rice wrote:Imperial Robots don't have AI in the way that they can think for themselves, they are programmed to carry out certain orders.

There is a great scene in The First Heretic regarding that. Admech AI is not AI because they say so which means it is not AI and the Admech will kill you if you even suggest that blasphemy.
The Adeptus Mechanicus is part of the Imperium, but they have their own ways. And the Legio Cybernetica is widely used.

They were in first edition, too, with a rule like "Orders". If my memory does not betray me, it was something like saying beforehand what the robot will do next turn.

Sanctioned Robots FTW!

But in the First Heretic there was a Tech Adept that controlled the Robot, same as in the old fluff.

Warhammer 40,000 Chapter Approved
Each maniple is virtually a self-contained unit. The (typically) four units are managed on the battlefield by a single tech-adept. He has little more to do than give the Robot's their final programs and then monitor their progress. He is, however, also charged with making sure that a damaged Robot (which could be dangerous to its own side) is destroyed as quickly as possible.

So that says that the adept doesn't do much, but without the adept they wouldn't have their orders and not function.

The Caban machine in the Visions books or Mechanicum is a machine created with AI, but robots aren't.

Maybe I miss your point though da001

My point?
It all depends of the definition of AI, I guess. Mostly from the religious point of view.
In The First Heretic the Word Bearers are fighting a society that uses AI. The Mechanicus helped with some robots, and it was difficult to see the difference. If there was any difference.

A robot need an extremely complicated AI to carry an order like "If enemy in charge range – move, assault, fire if possible" in a battlefield. Far more advanced than any AI we have nowadays. There are a lot of decissions to take. And the "Spirit of the Machine" of a powerful Titan or a Land Raider is sentient. And they feel emotions.
The most powerful robot in The First Heretic, called Incarnadine, was formally accepted as a Word Bearer, and developed feelings like pride and comradeship. It seriously unnerved the admech in command of its unit.

However, it is not the only reference in the fluff. The difference between "Spirit of the Machine" and "AI" is hard to see everytime the subject appears. They learn, they remember, they take decissions on their own, they feel. In Helsreach, the soul of a Titan is so powerful the princeps driving it is in constant fear of getting overwhelmed. And it remembers and feels.

Psychic powers are not sorcery. Librarians are not mutants. The Spirit of the Machine is not AI. The Emperor was a God that hates mutants or a mutant that wanted to end all religions in the name of science.
IMO, W40k is all about contradictions.

I'd made the stats good and the cost high to make it kind of a dreadnought equivalent. Lower stats and cost and it may as well just be another sentinel.

I used the order selection as that was the process (although not the specific orders) I remember from the GW rules. As an alternative for the keep it simple option though, how about...
If within 12" of a techpriest enginseer the robot can be used as a normal unit. If no techpriest is in range, the orders for the subsequent turn must be noted at the end of the players current turn. Or, same but robot falls to the 1, 2, 3 sequence from my orders above.

And thanks for all the extra fluff from people. Makes me want to see these on a table sometime even more.

I think something along the lines of tyranid thing.
Robots within 12" of an enginseer, act normally.

Assault robots out of this range, move, run, and assault the nearest enemy.
Shooting robots out enginseer range, move to the nearest cover, and fire at the nearest non-vehicle.
Tank Hunting robots out of the enginseers range move to the nearest cover, and fire at the nearest tank.
Objective Bots (need better name), will move and run at the nearest objective, assaulting any unit on it. If on an objective, will pop smoke.

Weapon loads would be something like:
Assault: +1A, 2 power fists (for another +1A), fleet
Shooting: 2 executioner cannons (that's the S7 AP4 heavy 4, right?)
Tank Hunting: 2 lascannons
Objective: +1 AV, combat shield(5+ invul in close combat) power weapon, 3 smoke launchers).

It's combining the programing into the type of robot, and giving very obvious effects for each type, and giving you a good reason to take an Enginseer, which is just fluffy.

Oh, WS3 BS3 S5 A2 Init2
I was thinking AV13/12/10
Maybe have robots within 12" of an enginseer also count as having extra armor(with no option for extra armor normally).

-Matt

da001 wrote:My point?
It all depends of the definition of AI, I guess. Mostly from the religious point of view.
In The First Heretic the Word Bearers are fighting a society that uses AI. The Mechanicus helped with some robots, and it was difficult to see the difference. If there was any difference.

A robot need an extremely complicated AI to carry an order like "If enemy in charge range – move, assault, fire if possible" in a battlefield. Far more advanced than any AI we have nowadays. There are a lot of decissions to take. And the "Spirit of the Machine" of a powerful Titan or a Land Raider is sentient. And they feel emotions.
The most powerful robot in The First Heretic, called Incarnadine, was formally accepted as a Word Bearer, and developed feelings like pride and comradeship. It seriously unnerved the admech in command of its unit.

However, it is not the only reference in the fluff. The difference between "Spirit of the Machine" and "AI" is hard to see everytime the subject appears. They learn, they remember, they take decissions on their own, they feel. In Helsreach, the soul of a Titan is so powerful the princeps driving it is in constant fear of getting overwhelmed. And it remembers and feels.

I kinda see what you are getting at. The Ad Mech would say that a Robot isn't AI as it still requires that human component and not all of the Robot is machine. I'm not sure it has the same kind of 'Machine Spirit' as the likes of a Land Raider but Chapter Approved goes on to state:

Each piece of wetware is held in a small slice of bioplastic, about the same size as a credit card. Many warriors take these from 'dead' robots, believing that them to hold the soul and courage of the robot. When kept in a medicine pouch some of the robot's bravery passes into the warrior; even some Marine Chapters have been known to follow this tradition.

So I guess it has the same kind of 'soul'

The reason why a Machine Spirit is allowed is because it's essentially the soul of the machine and essentially a living thing, like you point out about the Titans. AI is abhorred by the Mechanicus because it is Artificial and Soulless.

Yes.
AI is not allowed. Biological elements are needed in order to avoid blasphemy. But you need programs, which means at least a rudimentary AI, to rule it all. It is arguable if an AI supported by biological components crosses the line.

This is "2k wetware", I guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochip

However we are going wildly off-topic. We should be discussing Citizensmith´s rules, not fluff.

da001 wrote:Yes.
AI is not allowed. Biological elements are needed in order to avoid blasphemy. But you need programs, which means at least a rudimentary AI, to rule it all. It is arguable if an AI supported by biological components crosses the line.

This is "2k wetware", I guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biochip

However we are going wildly off-topic. We should be discussing Citizensmith´s rules, not fluff.

Well, I would argue what you are saying about the AI, as the Robot can only act on the instructions its been given, it can't suddenly decide that war is bad and start picking daisies. It still has to act within its specific parameters.

But on your second point I concur

Actually to be honest, I'm enjoying the fluff. Really without it the rules are just a bunch of numbers. Now I just need to figure out how to add the rule;

Roll 2D6, on a double 1 the robot spends the turn pondering the evils of war and picking daisies/crystals/small fluffy creatures.

Citizensmith wrote:Actually to be honest, I'm enjoying the fluff. Really without it the rules are just a bunch of numbers.
...
Roll 2D6, on a double 1 the robot spends the turn pondering the evils of war and picking daisies/crystals/small fluffy creatures.

Agreed. I will take as a "keep on".
It does not work that way. On a 2d6 = 1-1 the programm enters an infinite loop and just do nothing.

Pilau Rice wrote:Well, I would argue what you are saying about the AI, as the Robot can only act on the instructions its been given, it can't suddenly decide that war is bad and start picking daisies. It still has to act within its specific parameters.

AI does not work that way. We have a lot of AI´s (videogames come to mind) already around and they are getting more and more complicated. But they do not feel, nor they are sentient. The border between a non-heretic program and a blasphemy is the ability to take decissions on their own. But some Admech stuff clearly break their own rule.
The most important problem nowadays on AI is Learning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning

Back to topic: I found the Rogue Trader rules. P42 and p43. It is nearly 2 pages (and far more complicated than anything an average w40k player can accept), so I will try to summarize:
1) Movement. Relentless-equivalent rule.
2) Movement: you decide how they move the turn before. "A player controlling robots must write down the direction in which each robot is to move at the end of the previous turn". A watch-equivalent is used, from 1 o´clock to 12 o´clock. There are low-intelligence robots needing moving orders two turns in advance. They can not turn unless you do not move (they move or turn).
3) Fearless.
4) Shooting the nearest: they can only target the closest enemy unit within their fire arc. They MUST shoot at it.
5) Shooting your friends: if a friendly unit lies within their fire arc and is closer than the enemy, they roll "Intelligence" (nowadays would be Leadership, I guess). If failled... they shoot at your own unit.
6) Special damage chart. They do not roll on the vehicles chart. It is a 10 results chart, including "robot goes berserk" and "lost of co-ordination (moves 1d6¨)
7) Optional Rule: Malfunction. "The Game Master can allot a chance of each robot suffering a malfunction every turn- this may be as low as 1 in 20 or as high as 1 in 4." Roll a D10 and consult the damage chart.

They were heavily armed but quite random on the battlefield. I think you could add an admech or equivalent to make them slightly easier to control.
Now that I reread them, they are not that complicated. Indeed, yours are harder.

da001 wrote:
AI does not work that way. We have a lot of AI´s (videogames come to mind) already around and they are getting more and more complicated. But they do not feel, nor they are sentient. The border between a non-heretic program and a blasphemy is the ability to take decissions on their own. But some Admech stuff clearly break their own rule.
The most important problem nowadays on AI is Learning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning

In what way, that it can't think for itself? Isn't that the whole thing we have been discussing. Imperial Robots can't think for themselves, they operate on a basic set of instructions that they have been programmed to follow. Shoot the Orks. Don't shoot the Space Marines. Open the Jar of Pickles.

This is an artificial brain of sorts, which is constructed from artificial proteins and enzymes. This cortex is imprinted with simple maintenance and movement routines - a rudimentary 'mind'. These enable the Robot to obey simple instructions ("Open the Weapon Bay Door, Please... Move Ahead to the Holding Area" etc) when away from the battlefield.

Before a battle the firmware routines are overlaid and replaced by the Robot's combat wetware (ie the software of a protein computer). This new cortex program, which can be changed for every battle, defines, for example, how and when the Robot is to fire its weapons or detonate its self-destruct charges

It might have a basic mind but that's so that it can complete it's programming - but that's what it is a programmed machine.

Maybe i'm just not catching your train of thought or maybe i'm missing something ...

I guess it is a question of degrees.

IMO, you need intelligence to distinguish between friend and foe in the middle of the battle. Natural intelligence, demonic intelligence, AI or "the Machine Spirit".

What about adapting the rules from Rogue Trader for robot? Any idea?

How about starting with what GW started with, namely the article in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium?

I'm currently engaged with a similiar project in writing an updated Genestealer Cult codex. I have to say the best source I'm drawing from is the original articles which were what got me into the hobby in the first place.

I have the Compendium. If you would like some help, just let me know.