Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just wondering as to people's opinion of Bladestorm.

In my 1000 point eldar list I run two squads of Dire Avengers with Exarch, Dual catapults and Bladestorm.
One of my main tactics is to alternate firing one squad with Bladestorm and then the other, on consecutive shooting phases.

However, during my recent games, I have been seeing a large number of players call "cheese" to the way I play.

My question is this, why?
The way I understand it, if I'm playing against Eldar then I know that Dire Avengers with Bladestorm is a possibility of appearing. Just like as an Eldar player, i know that when playing marines, there will be a large number of 3+ and 2+ armour saves, and a possibility of a psychic hood appearing too, so i know I have to prepare myself for this.

My thinking is that if it is a part of the game and is how the game was designed, why is it that so many people feel that playing this way is cheap or as one opponent put it to me as "cheating".

It doesn't bother me and I generally just think that if they call "cheese" that they are not prepared for it and be beaten all the more easier.

I just want to hear other people opinions on Bladestorm and other so called "chesse" tactics.

There is no such thing as cheese. Maybe should find other people to play instead of people who don't want to even have to try and win. My buddy plays a similar army and the first few times I played him the avengers shredded me and I had to figure out how to deal with it.

Cheese is a word used by people who want the dice to decide the game...

Don't worry about it. Your opponents are aparently unaware that if they simply put their guys in transports, no amount of S4 shots can hurt them.

DA's are good, but not cheating.

Oddly enough, a mathematical analysis of various units will show that Bladestorm and the accompanying Dire Avengers are only appropriately costed if they can shoot it every round. They cost too much with it's penalties.

So, just like everything else in the Codex really.

Yeah, Blade Storms perfectly viable. It's infact fairly balanced due to its cost, weak original weapons and need to 'reload'.
I'd definitely take it on almost any DA unit.

There's very few Eldar tactics that can be called cheating these days. Ignore them and cast Doom on the targetted squad too.

Yeah, it's never something that has worried me. It's my army and I can play it however i want.

I have recently been playing with anyone who turns up at my local GW store for practice and just to get better against varied opponents, I usually just play against my brothers footda marine army or a friends Green Tide orks. So it can be rather interesting seeing the results of one round of shooting against a mob of 30 boys (my friend doesn't see any tactically sound reason to split his groups into smaller squads of boys)... Also utilising doom...

However, on another note, I have been since considering replacing the Bladestorm with Defend. i have found that with 2 squads of Avengers I can put out the same amount of shots each turn with both firing then one bladestorming and alternating each turn. And I also have the added ability to shoot separate targets...

Also as I understand it, Defend will negate any charge benefit so since I am usually playing against those who like to assault my Avengers (5 out of the last 6 games this has happened) This would be a very handy power.

I'm not sure why you would alternate bladestorming. It lets you keep up a rate of fire, but I think you'd be better off laying into the enemy with both, to cause the most casualties possible, then running away until you can fire again. Otherwise whatever squad bladestormed last is probably going to get et in assault.

It would also make a single use of Doom more effective.

Alternating bladestorms doesn't increase your volume of fire. Across two turns it gives you slightly less shooting over simply firing normally, though it does shift some of those shots into the more important earlier turn. Past the second turn it actually decreases your firepower. The point of bladestorm is that your trade away your sustained firepower for more firepower at the critical moment.

Def not cheese. I run similar units myself and it's only one of our few ways of killing MEQs with doom. I don't know about your opponents but they just sound like sore losers

its not cheese it is a viable eldar tactic

the best thing with blade storm is to use them all at the same time then hop into
a transport and fly to the next target. A dual blade-storm + doom will leave most units
destroyed or severely damaged so you would have to move to a new target anyway.

my $.02

Gl in ur games

Someone calls your DAs cheese? Holy Crap!

Oh my goodness, they should be thanking you for even using Dire Avengers.

That is why I can't stand people who cry cheese. That is such a defeatist attitude. Cheese means they are either too lazy or stupid to figure out how to counter it. An intelligent person doesn't cry like a bay and say, "that beats me so you can't use it, wa wa wa!" They say, "that is an effective tactic, how can I counter it?"

One is the mark of maturity, the other immaturity.

Wow, Dire Avengers are cheesy. That is rich. Eldar infantry are some of the worst in the game. They are nearly all overcosted for what you get (apart from Jetbikes and Rangers).

Cheese is an expression of an opinion. It is purely subjective and there is no way to objectively quantify it. For all intents and purposes it does not exist. There are only legal and illegal lists.

Anyway, enough of the rant.

As others have said, Bladestorm often isn't worth it. It is usually better to save points on them and run them naked as in two turns you fire 33% more shots than 1 turn of bladestorm. Bladestorm really only works in a shoot and scoot type list or when you are playing assault armies where you will typically only get one shot off before being charged, or charging yourself.

Honestly though, if your opponents are crying cheese, just suggest that they try and think of a new way to play their army, or some new units to use, that will allow them to beat your tactics. They can't expect you to not play your army the way you want to play it in order to accommodate them.

DarknessEternal wrote:Oddly enough, a mathematical analysis of various units will show that Bladestorm and the accompanying Dire Avengers are only appropriately costed if they can shoot it every round. They cost too much with it's penalties.

So, just like everything else in the Codex really.

Exactly. I'll take Bladestorm if I have the points leftover but generally I'll give the Exarch a powerweapon and shimmershield because I hate the look of the dual catapults.
Even then they usually live inside their Wave Serpents until turn 4ish (you'd be surprised how often people will forget they're even in the game) then they'd Bladestorm then charge to wipe out whatever is left then; or to try to drive a squad off of an objective depends on the game type and the enemy. Though I generally prefer Defend if I have points left over somehow.