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Alright, so this came up in a couple games tonight and we didn't catch it until after all the games were over and models were tucked safely away.

As per the DE FAQ, models without the 'power from pain' special rule do not benefit from Pain tokens (FNP, Furious Charge, and Fearless, respectively).

FNP and Furious Charge are fairly straightforward, because the benefits for the special rules apply specifically to "Models" and not "Units". Fearless, however, causes a unit to automatically pass Morale and Pinning tests. The USR dictates that a non-fearless character joining a fearless squad will benefit, but a fearless character joining a non-fearless squad will not.

So here's the question: Since beastmasters are simply a model in a unit, and not Independent Characters, will having the third FNP token allow the unit to auto-pass morale if the unit takes 25% casualties or loses combat?

I argue that it doesn't, since the unit isn't totally fearless and beastmasters aren't ICs. My Dark Eldar friend claims that they do auto-pass, since it is the beastmaster's leadership that's being used to take the test. He is a very insistent person and claims that i rules-lawyer things to the point of not being fun anymore, and we have arguments like this one ALL the time, it's very frustrating. Any input from the community will be greatly appreciated, thanks.

The simple version is that there's no indication at all in the rules how a unit containing some Fearless models and some non-Fearless models is supposed to work in general. The fact that the rules discuss mixing IC's and units doesn't help at all.

I recommend cursing GW each time a Beastmaster unit gets three tokens, I find it's quite relaxing.

I would play it as the unit being fearless. Why? The Beastmasters are the ones in charge of the stupid animals, so it is only logical that they are able to keep the animals in line during times of stress.

If you want an 'official' rule on this, you won't find one.

Roll a die.

...characters with fearless loose it in non-fearless units
...characters include upgrade characters ...

So no they don't get get fearless but to be frank you could argue that the beasts are the upgrades (so gain fearless).

The beasts are the upgrades, as the "base" models in the unit are the masters.

Edit Tri: except that onl;y applies to ICs *joining* units, as the asterisks talk about. An upgrade character never "joins" a unit.

So basically the jury's out.

In practice this is less of an issue because a furious charging, FNP'ing unit of beastmasters with kymera, razorwings, and a clawed fiend that has gotten up to 3 pain tokens is probably not going to lose any combats from that point in the game forward.

@BuFFo - at least grant me the concession that it is a sticky subject that isn't directly covered in the rules, since you are the resident DE guy on here. That at least will make me feel better when razorwings rend my grey hunters to DEATH....haha.

One thing to note though, the rule is independant characters lose the rule not members of the unit (Keep in mind, beastmasters are not even considered "upgrade characters" in the unit as they are added to the unit before anything else). As the beastmaster is not an independant character they would be fearless as long as one of the beastmasters is alive. If the beastmasters are dead an all that's left are beasts, then they are not fearless. The reason for this is the beastmasters do not lose the fearless rule, when a morale test is called upon to be made you take morale checks against the highest available leadership, in this case the beastmasters. As the beastmaster is fearless, the morale check is automatically passed.

Isn't fearless a USR? Similar to stealth USR that if one model has it then the whole unit does?

Will be interesting to see how it is FAQ'd. We played it as the unit is fearless as long as there is a beastmaster alive.

(oh and beastmasters are NOT helions no hellglaives (sorry Tet, real dumb of me)

tetrisphreak wrote:@BuFFo - at least grant me the concession that it is a sticky subject that isn't directly covered in the rules, since you are the resident DE guy on here. That at least will make me feel better when razorwings rend my grey hunters to DEATH....haha.

Which is why I said this....

BuFFo wrote:If you want an 'official' rule on this, you won't find one.

Roll a die.

Everyone here keeps bringing up "When a character joins" and "IC this and IC that" and "Upgraded Characters".

This situation has NOTHING to do with any of that. This is simply a unit that is half fearless and half not, which is NOT covered in the rules.

Just decide with your group what you want to play it as and have at it!

@acsmedic: No worries about the rules mishap regarding hellglaives, it was a fun game regardless of the outcome.

As far as USR's go, certain ones cannot be shared by a whole unit a la' stealth. The rules question here is how to treat a mixed unit that has 2 or 3 fearless models and roughly 18 non-fearless ones, wherein none of the models have the IC characteristic (which would actually be covered in the Fearless USR). As the argument stands now, i see two equally viable points of view:

1.) The beastmasters, while fearless, do NOT confer it to the entire unit. The unit is subjected to morale tests, not individual models, so while the highest leadership used belongs to a fearless model it is irrelevant because the entire squad is not fearless. Morale/Pinning checks must be taken.

2.) The beastmasters, controllers of their kymera to the n'th degree, have full reign over their psyche and so will fearlessly keep them from falling back should they see their brethren shot down from afar or in close combat.

I can't support theory #2 in game terms with rules quotes, which lends me to favor #1 in my own opinion at the moment. If someone else can do a better job than me I am still all ears on this one, because as many things as those beastmasters are able to kill this question will come up in games from time to time, i am sure.