Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In his fluff, the Swarmlord is described in a very unique way. It is said to have much more freedom from the Hive Mind, so that it can learn and develop its own strategies. It is also said to have a very close association with the Hive Mind insofar as it can be regenerated by any Hive Fleet, regardless of location or other circumstances.

It is a stress-based response when new tactics are required to defeat an enemy, beyond mere evolution and adaptation.

So, this leads me to 2 questions: Is the Swarmlord independent from Hive Mind control, and, if so, is the Swarmlord a threat to the Hive Mind?

It appears that the Swarmlord does have a large degree of independence, and at the very least, its own sentience. But that begs the question: if the Swarmlord can grow and learn on its own, wouldn't that necessitate that the Swarmlord has its own sentience? And, if this is the case, would that not also necessitate freedom from the Hive Mind?

Perhaps it can be controlled, but it is certainly not an extension of the Hive Mind's will, like other synapse-based bio-forms are.

Well then, could the Swarmlord also be a threat to the Hive Mind?

If it is free, and can use the synapse network of the Tyranids, could the Hive Mind be in danger of being usurped, or at the very least, challenged by the Swarmlord?

After aeons of experience, could the Swarmlord begin to pull away from the Hive Mind? Could it use synapse to control other Tyranids, and actively resist being re-absorbed into the Hive Mind?

Interesting to think about, this is. It's not every day a race of alien monsters from another galaxy possesses a tactical geni-CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!

Sorry, I had to!

I doubt the Swarmlord is free from the hive mind. The fact it is a Tyranid means the concepts of freedom and rebellion from the hive mind are likely not even considered by it.

I think it is however much like a stress responce. If the Hive Mind can't adept or evolve fast enough for the current fight, then send in the Swarmlord. It might simply be a sort of incarnation of the Hive Mind itself, up close and in the fight when it really needs to be.

I agree with Veldrain. The Swarmlord isn't a specific creature like Old One Eye, but more of a type of hive tyrant that is deployed to be a general of sorts. If one dies, the hive can build another and implant the memories and experiences of the past one into the current one, making it that much more dangerous.

While it is free to make its own decisions, its only in a leadership and tactics way. It's a synaptic link, so it's never going to be without the controlling influence of the hive mind.

As for reincarnating it with the same experiences, normal hive Tyrants undergo the same process when they die. It seems to be implied that the Swarmlord, however, is something that works across the entire synaptic network. Anything the Swarmlord learns isn't limited to that specific Swarmlord or Hive Fleet. Like, the things the Swarmlord that fought in the Battle for McCragge learned would be available to all hive fleets, and any Swarmlord grown by another hive fleet would have those experiences.

the way i see it swarmlords are like the genestealers but where the stealers are seperated from the hivemind they re-connect with it when it comes close enough and the brood re-awakens. The swarmlords are connected with the hive mind but is a creature that is able to think for its self it to a extent as the ties to the hive mind are weaker than other nids ( this is shown as the swarmlord always follows the pattens of a tyranid to destory) . The only way a swarmlord would think for its self with out the hivemind is is it was seprated from a fleet for a extended period of time and yes i know that a swarmlord is able to think of tactics but think of it like this, if it was seperated it would be free and able to think for it's self and might not even attack creatures it might become passive and try to make contact even tho its original programming was to destory but the hive mind would have no influence and this creature would have to think for itself and understand what it is it would become a infant forgetting what happend to it as it is a creature of higher thinking but its memorys and orders would be erased as the link is severed.

@Loki: Very good point, I forgot that was how it worked. Been a while since I read their codex, which I remember reading that in.

thermatic wrote:the way i see it swarmlords are like the genestealers but where the stealers are seperated from the hivemind they re-connect with it when it comes close enough and the brood re-awakens. The swarmlords are connected with the hive mind but is a creature that is able to think for its self it to a extent as the ties to the hive mind are weaker than other nids ( this is shown as the swarmlord always follows the pattens of a tyranid to destory) . The only way a swarmlord would think for its self with out the hivemind is is it was seprated from a fleet for a extended period of time and yes i know that a swarmlord is able to think of tactics but think of it like this, if it was seperated it would be free and able to think for it's self and might not even attack creatures it might become passive and try to make contact even tho its original programming was to destory but the hive mind would have no influence and this creature would have to think for itself and understand what it is it would become a infant forgetting what happend to it as it is a creature of higher thinking but its memorys and orders would be erased as the link is severed.

The problem with that is the very nature of the Swarmlord. If it got separated from the synaptic network, it's still a beast of combat. Created for combat, equipped for combat, and utterly terrifying to behold. There's not a race in the universe who would approach the thing with peaceful intentions in mind.

tau would i mean they try and convince things to the greater good, there are also creatures like the cabal in legion that have peaceful intentions and are always serching . You have to think that yes it might be a best of combat but if seperated it would have the mind of a baby not knowing what to do.

Baby with psyhic power, four power sword which most likely eat meat

Tau would probably get eaten the moment they sent any "negotiator"

Swarmlord as powerful as he is got his head ripped of by Marneus Calgar, who despite being a chapter master is one marine. How would Swarmlord possibly pose a threat to the Hive mind and every hive fleet in orbit .

But would Calgar be able to do it again? I mean, one would have to assume that the Hive Mind has accounted for that scenario after its occurance.

just because its accounted for something doesnt mean it can 100% overcome it, I may know theres an axe murderer behind me about to turn me into Khoneflakes but that doesnt mean i can stop him. Not to mention theres loads of variables like now Calgars made largely out of bionics, he could wear either his terminator or artificer armour, he could have a different honor guard with different gear ?.
Either way the Op wasnt about Swarmlord vs Calgar round 2 it was about Swarmlord soloing the hive mind itself.

Even if the swarmlord was "free" it's still a tyranid. What other purpose does it have other than to further the devouring of the galaxy? "rebelling" would be completely pointless and counterproductive

There is not a single piece of fluff supporting the Swarmlord degenerating into an infant state of mind. What happens other Tyranid creatures are isolated from the hive mind.

Old One Eye, buried in ice for decades until he was thawed out, still continues to break stuff.

Doom of Malan'Tai, the last creature of his splinter fleet, managed to soul shred what was left of a craftworld down to the last eldar.

Any smaller creature, basically enters hibernation until a synapse link is sensed.

The Swarmlord when synapse is completely cut off, if that is even possible with him, I imagine he would go around breaking stuff until the link reformed. And as far as the Tau approching it to talk, sorry but no. The Tau might be naive to try that with even Dark Eldar, but their not suicidal enough to try it a Tyranid.

While the in-game rules do not cover it, its pretty clear that all Tyranid creatures have some version of Instintive Behavior.

First would just like to say it was the swarmlord who won the fight between him and calgar, it clearly stats in the nid codex that only due to his honour guard does he live.
Next i agree that the swarmlord would never even think about betraying the hive mind because even those he was give free will that doesn't mean there isn't control methods in his mind. (sorry if that makes no senes.)

Veldrain wrote:There is not a single piece of fluff supporting the Swarmlord degenerating into an infant state of mind. What happens other Tyranid creatures are isolated from the hive mind.

Old One Eye, buried in ice for decades until he was thawed out, still continues to break stuff.

Doom of Malan'Tai, the last creature of his splinter fleet, managed to soul shred what was left of a craftworld down to the last eldar.

Any smaller creature, basically enters hibernation until a synapse link is sensed.

The Swarmlord when synapse is completely cut off, if that is even possible with him, I imagine he would go around breaking stuff until the link reformed. And as far as the Tau approching it to talk, sorry but no. The Tau might be naive to try that with even Dark Eldar, but their not suicidal enough to try it a Tyranid.

While the in-game rules do not cover it, its pretty clear that all Tyranid creatures have some version of Instintive Behavior.

Not only that but the older fluff has individual Tyranid guns having independent though. So I don't think it's a stretch to say the Swarmlord is sentient/independent (yet still relies on the hive).

RE: Calgar v. Swarmlord----That's Matt Ward fluff isn't it? Which means it's automatically ridiculed.

From what I remember, isn't the SwarmLord just a unique creation of the Hive Mind that can learn as it fights? And the HiveMind will retain its knowledge and remake it everytime it dies.

ChronoCupcake wrote:Swarmlord as powerful as he is got his head ripped of by Marneus Calgar, who despite being a chapter master is one marine. How would Swarmlord possibly pose a threat to the Hive mind and every hive fleet in orbit .

Except the Tyranid codex describes Calgar being beaten and nearly killed by the Swarmlord - his honour guard arrived, saved his ass, and carried him away. Annnd now that I'm home, I can get the quote.

The the Swarmlord bellowed a challenge to Calgar and, leading a bodyguard of Tyrant Guard and Tyranid Warriors, the monstrous Hive Tyrant plunged into the fray.

Seeing their chapter master beset, the Ultramarines hastened to his aid, but found themselves assailed from an unexpected quarter. Not all of the Hormagaunts on the left flank had been slain as previously thought - many hundreds were lying dormant amongst the corpses of their kin, ravenous instincts suppressed by the Swarmlords dominating will. As the Swarmlord charged forward, he released the Hormagaunts from their slumber.

...

The Hormagaunts numbers were not great enough to do more than delay the Ultramarines, but the delay would be enough for the Swarmlords purpose. Calgar was laid low, his body rent and torn, his last strength expended in mortal combat with the Swarmlord. His Honour Guard fought before their wounded Chapter Master, axes of Ultramar flashing in the cold light as they drove the Swarmlord back from the body of their lord.

Yeah, really sounds like he ripped the Swarmlords head off. Even after his efforts, the Honour Guard couldn't finish it off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Veldrain wrote:The Swarmlord when synapse is completely cut off, if that is even possible with him, I imagine he would go around breaking stuff until the link reformed. And as far as the Tau approching it to talk, sorry but no. The Tau might be naive to try that with even Dark Eldar, but their not suicidal enough to try it a Tyranid.

Essentially, it couldn't happen. It is a synapse creature - by its very nature it is always linked to the Hive Mind. The only way for it to not be linked is either killing it, or making sure there is no hive mind.

I agree with the posts above but you have me toying with the analogy of an AI developing (much like in I Robot with will smith lol)
Hypothetically what if the Swarmlord saw a tactical advantage from separating its link with the hive mind (i doubt it would be possible, but just for curiosities sake)?
This all depends on the level of independence/intelligence of the swarmlord though i know
Plus we dont know if it has any instictive behaviour if any which would drive it to rage or to hide in a hole untill the hive mind returns for it.


Dan

The thing is - it can't be separated from the hive mind and revert to instinctive behavior, because of the simple fact that it is a synapse creature. Tyranids fall to instinctive behavior when there is no synapse creature around to link them to the hive mind - the Swarmlord is a synapse link.

While it gets the freedom of partial independence from the hive mind, the hive mind is still there. It can think, but it is still bound to its will, and is still controlled by it. Tyranids have proven to be very good at keeping their creatures under control through the hive mind, I can't see that control being any different with the Swarmlord.

The hive mind, to my knowledge, isn't a single entity. It's the collective conscience of all the tyranids.

As for synapse creatures they just have more of a say then others. The old orwell quote "some are more equal than others". To me the hivemind is just the most equal member of the hive mind that we know.

AFAIK, the Hive Mind is just a gestalt consciousness, formed by the millions upon millions of Tyranid creatures linked together by the telepathic network called Synapse. The larger creatures, being more advanced, are closer to self-awareness than the average gant, but they are still just extensions of the greater consciousness that is the Hive Mind.

In this regard, the Swarmlord may very well have a sense of "self" in that it can make semi-independent decisions and perceives itself as an entity separate from other Tyranids, but in the end it's nothing more than the projection of the Hive Mind's immensely powerful leadership and combat skills, encased in a vessel suited to its role on the battlefield.