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I've been doing a game a week for ~2 months, and have YET to win a game. I usually end up getting tabled. I play Eldar, and now have a fairly sizeable army. I think that one of my major problems is initial placement of my units - I haven't been able to decide what I want to do "down the road" with units, and have trouble figuring out strategy for the games (e.g., who to hold in reserves). I'm thinking of asking someone to be my advisor for my next game, to help me learn these tactics, but it's difficult since my potential advisers aren't really up on Eldar knowledge. I primarily play SM's, but will occasionally play Nids and rarely play Orks. Does anyone know of a book or article somewhere that discusses basic starting of a game (unit placement & movement) beyond the regular rulebook? I'm REALLY hoping that this is something I can learn! Thanks for any advice anyone can give me! I'd really like to be able to enjoy the games more, but it's difficult when ALL of my poor Eldar units get decimated routinely.

Check out this youtube channel. Fritz has some good advice on a ton of topics.
http://www.youtube.com/user/WayOfSaimHann

do a search there for eldar

I spent a few months getting tabled every game, the trick is to learn something from every game. If your opponents really punish you for making mistakes, you should remember it better than someone just telling you what to do. Something else that is very helpful is these same opponents explaining what you did wrong and what they did to make you pay.

My biggest problem was having my orks running at two speeds, trucks and bike with foot sloggers are not a good mix, they just die in two waves. The lesson you could learn from this, is your army needs to work together.

I have also learned a lot from reading these forums.

What's your army list?

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:What's your army list?

Seconded.

If we know your list we'll have a better chance of finding out where your going wrong with list building (if indeed you are)...

However, this may help.

Dayve110 wrote:With most armies,games COULD be won or lost in the deployment phase. With Eldar games ARE won and lost in the deployment phase.
This also applies to reserves, as you will eventually have to deploy on the table. Remember, your supposed to be able to see into the future, so act like it. You should be planning turns in advance, for instance, when deploying, you should be thinking "where do i want this wave serpent by turn 3?" I'll agree this would be good if you played like this for other armies, but its more important to Eldar. With all the specialisation in the list, you need to get in the right place, at the right time, with the right units, and hope the enemy doesn't throw a spanner in the works.

If you can force/trick an opponent to split his forces to counter your own you can quickly converge on one part of it, annihilating it in short order, with minimal losses.
The biggest mistake a player could make against Eldar is splitting up, as one of the things Eldar can still do exceptionally well is point at a unit and make it disappear (it help when dooming the unit to shout "Doooooooom", along with jinxing the the enemies rolls by saying things like "you should be fine, anything but a 1 and your golden" or "Ld 10? you can't possibly fail!")
One thing Eldar can't do so well is get hit back, so its best to wipe units out one at time with concentrated firepower, which is where the enemy splitting up comes in =D They do the work for you as you can then casually take out the lone unit/units without getting blammed by the entire enemy force.
Eldrad is extrememly useful at this with divination, but as its a random amount of units moved, and the enemy should see it coming, its not as usefull against your regular opponents.

Are you playing friendly games, against people you are actually "friendly" with (not just someone who happens to be at the store at the time)?

I find when you play with friends, they will let you make mistakes, however they will point out mistakes after you make them, and maybe what you should have done instead. Thats how I make most of my improvements. You can also do this after the game too. Sit down with your opponent and talk about how they thought the game went for you.

Don't post your list. The list is not the only factor in this game. I know it's hard to believe this for anyone that reads this forum on a regular basis.

One thing you need to understand your playing a army that is not very forgiving. It's not a bad army it's just tactical mistakes can get very costly very quickly.

Eldar are one the most mobile armies in the game if you play them right. Eldar can be strong defensively, but they are much better if played offensively. Tank up your assault troops and move them up from assault, walk some dire avengers up the field to lay down some firepower...etc.

Keep the army moving, eldar's best defense is a good offence.

Thanks for all the advice thus far, everyone. For those who were interested in my last army list (the one w/o any psychers), it was: Asurmen, 11 DA's split in 2 units (& 2 exarchs, one w/ pwr & shimmer), 9 Bansheese (w/ war shout, acrobatic, and exarch w/ mirrorswords), Wave Serpent w/ twin-linked BL's, spirit stones & vectored engines; 2 Walkers w/ 2 SL's each, and a WL with 2 flamers and a BL (total 996 points). I'd previously been using a Footdar grouping (1500 points) for a few weeks, and hadn't had much luck with them - so I know I'm simply not using the units correctly and not deploying them correctly. I've been playing with a pretty good group, but they haven't been telling me what I've done wrong each step. They just correct me if I don't interpret the rules right. Only one of my opponents is somewhat knowledgeable with Eldar. The last game (1000 points) was against SM's with no transports/tanks, just tons of troops. VERY frustrating.

Dayve110 mentioned planning future moves - I'm still having trouble figuring this out, and don't know if it's something LEARNED or something that's an innate talent for someone. If it's a learned ability, I'm in the really slow group; if it's an innate talent I'm sunk!

Are there certain groupings that should be used together, and certain placements that work well when doing the initial deployment? For example, in DOW, is it best to start out with 1 unit each of Guards & DA's and then use the Avatar for the HQ? Which units do best when held in reserve (other than spiders)? I've got lots of small units of different types, and have been trying to use one new group every weekend to "feel them out". I was VERY pleased with how Asurman did last weekend, but forgot that he'd lose his Fearless if he joined a unit of DA's (my opponent didn't know this, either) - had thought it would act to make the entire unit fearless.

My useable inventory as of now includes: Avatar, Ulthwe, Farseer, 3 Warlocks, 16 Banshees (w/2ex), 20 Guardians, (D-cannon w/ 2 guardians), 20 DA's (w/2 ex), 5 Rangers, 6 Fire Dragons (w/ ex), 6 Scorpions (w/ ex), 5 Reapers (w/ ex), 5 Spiders (w/ ex), 13 Harlequins (w/2SS, 1TM, 1DJ), Serpent, Prism, 3 Jetbikes, Prince Yriel, Lord Asurman, Lord Fuegan, Lord Jain Zar, 3 Walkers, and 2 Wraithlords. I've pretty much given up on the Guardians, as they tend to be appetizers for all opponents - unless I'm simply not using them right.

Well, that's it for now - any suggestions will be helpful! Thanks in advance!

You should ask the people you play for advice. when they table a noob consistently for 2 months straight.....
NOT NICE!

Dayve110 wrote:With most armies,games COULD be won or lost in the deployment phase. With Eldar games ARE won and lost in the deployment phase.
This also applies to reserves, as you will eventually have to deploy on the table. Remember, your supposed to be able to see into the future, so act like it. You should be planning turns in advance, for instance, when deploying, you should be thinking "where do i want this wave serpent by turn 3?" I'll agree this would be good if you played like this for other armies, but its more important to Eldar. With all the specialisation in the list, you need to get in the right place, at the right time, with the right units, and hope the enemy doesn't throw a spanner in the works.

If you can force/trick an opponent to split his forces to counter your own you can quickly converge on one part of it, annihilating it in short order, with minimal losses.
The biggest mistake a player could make against Eldar is splitting up, as one of the things Eldar can still do exceptionally well is point at a unit and make it disappear (it help when dooming the unit to shout "Doooooooom", along with jinxing the the enemies rolls by saying things like "you should be fine, anything but a 1 and your golden" or "Ld 10? you can't possibly fail!")
One thing Eldar can't do so well is get hit back, so its best to wipe units out one at time with concentrated firepower, which is where the enemy splitting up comes in =D They do the work for you as you can then casually take out the lone unit/units without getting blammed by the entire enemy force.
Eldrad is extrememly useful at this with divination, but as its a random amount of units moved, and the enemy should see it coming, its not as usefull against your regular opponents.

All I can say is many players go through a slump when they start, especially if they dont have any other brand new players to play and learn with.

If your playing good players at your local store then all you can do is try to learn at least 1 thing every game until it *clicks* which it will just keep with it.

That and eldar have a bit of a steep learning curve, so I'm told.

Makhoy wrote:Dayve110 mentioned planning future moves - I'm still having trouble figuring this out, and don't know if it's something LEARNED or something that's an innate talent for someone. If it's a learned ability, I'm in the really slow group; if it's an innate talent I'm sunk!

I believe its a learned ability... As my gaming history has started to show, although it may just be that i became more tactically minded after my 40k break, who knows.

Gaming history with rough % of wins, from what i can remember:

40% - Old skool blood angels
45% - Nids
60% - CSM (the good codex!)
75% - LOTD (EoT codex)
80% - SM (vanilla)
85% - Eldar
---Break---
95%+ - Eldar

Well its only rough, and from what i remember, i remember the game being less stressful back then. Loosing was not something to be worried about, and players would do silly things just because it was fun at the time! I suppose its quite obvious because i can remember alot of detaills about my more recent games such as exactly why i won/lost and small petty details but all i remember from before were the funny parts, like when my DP charged in, 5 attacks, 5 one's. Those were indeed simpler times.

Makhoy wrote:Are there certain groupings that should be used together, and certain placements that work well when doing the initial deployment? For example, in DOW, is it best to start out with 1 unit each of Guards & DA's and then use the Avatar for the HQ? Which units do best when held in reserve (other than spiders)? I've got lots of small units of different types, and have been trying to use one new group every weekend to "feel them out"

For me its all about hiding... Give me an army with a max AV of 12 and majority T3 and a small unit count... and i'm giong to hide like a little girl! Make sure units can claim cover most of the time but don't overreach yourself by spreading to thin of too far forward etc by trying to reach it.
As for your Q about DoW, generally the Avatar is a nice bet, if your deploying first you can simply plonk him down behind some LOS blocking cover and sit him there, hopefully keeping the enemy at bay while the rest of your army moves up into support.
My personnal favorite however is spearhead deployment, the chance of side shots is alot greater if you can swing around the flanks but you have to have some fast elements to try this one effectivly.

For reserves it really depends on what you have, what the mission is, and what the opponent is running.
For me a no-brainer reserve unit in minimal GJB units, they can come in late for an objective grab or simply hide off the board if its KP's, because lets face it, if they get shot at, they die.
However spiders for me a generally a 'deploy on table' unit. They can scoot up a flank rather quickly and if the terrain is right they dont get shot at either. You can generally get where you need to go as fast as deepstriking most of the time and you do not have to worry about mishaps.

As for feeling out different combos, its the best way to learn. Reading advise on the net can only do so much, actually getting models onto the table will give you a much better idea of what to do with a unit. Keep going with that, try and find some winning combos that work to your style.

General_Chaos wrote:Check out this youtube channel. Fritz has some good advice on a ton of topics.
http://www.youtube.com/user/WayOfSaimHann

do a search there for eldar

+1
There is a ton of good tactical advise on youtube. Fritz goes into a lot of strategy/tactics, and his videos are awesome.

While focusing on aspects in this thread, such as deployment, are useful -- I think you need more of a overhaul of the strategy of 40k.
Don't bother with posting your list. A list does not go much good until you understand how to play it.
To put this in chess terms, anyone who reads chess books will almost always dominate people who don't. Take the time, and 'read your chess books' by watching videos like Fritz'. Learn the fundamental tactics/strategies of the game, and watch your win/loss ratio change dramatically.

The fact is, most people I meet in my FLGS don't try and 'up their game'. Their happy to stay where they are at, and wonder why they lose to me 90% of the time. The answer is that I'm always trying to 'up my game', and they are not.

The three things that determine whether you are able to accomplish objectives (and thus win) are your list, your deployment, and your movement. Assuming that you are actually making completing objectives in order to win as your primary goal, then your problem lies in one of those three (or some combination).

Post your army list to make sure that you have the right tools for the job. Then we'd need to see some pictures to actually see your deployment, and we'd need to see a battle report to see how your movement lined up with completing objectives.

Otherwise, there's not a lot we can do to help you in specific, it will just be general advice that may or may not be applicable.

Hey guys. I'm from Makhoy's gaming group. How-about I give you my list, and you tailor against it?... And also give tactical advice and whatnot...

Crisis Battlesuit Commander
Burst Cannon/Missile Pod/Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit Team (3x)
Burst Cannon/Missile Pod/Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit Team (3x)
Burst Cannon/Missile Pod/Multi-Tracker

Crisis Battlesuit Team (3x)
Burst Cannon/Missile Pod/Multi-Tracker

Fire Warrior Team (12)

Fire Warrior Team (12)

Kroot (10)

Pathfinders (4)
Devilfish (Smart Missile System/Targeting Array/Multi-Tracker/Disruption Pods)

Pathfinders (4)
Devilfish (Smart Missile System/Targeting Array/Multi-Tracker/Disruption Pods)

Hammerhead
(Railgun/Burst Cannons/Multi-Tracker/Disruption Pods)

Hammerhead
(Railgun/Burst Cannons/Multi-Tracker/Disruption Pods)

1500