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Was there a version of the GW SW FAQ that stated you can target enemy units locked in close combat with Jaws of the World Wolf?

Black Fiend wrote:Was there a version of the GW SW FAQ that stated you can target enemy units locked in close combat with Jaws of the World Wolf?

Not that I am aware of. It was argued by some that it could do so, but as a psychic shooting attack it is disallowed.

If memory serves, you have to have a target initially, which requires LOS, making locked models ineligible. However if a legal primary target was closer (not locked) and the remainder of the 24 inch line passed through locked models I'm not sure what would happen.

I don't know that has ever been addressed in a FAQ. IN years of playing wolves, I don't recall it ever happening either.

We had this discussion recently. The rule which forbids shooting into HtH doesn't say anything about targeting. You simply can't shoot models in HtH. Even, for example, with a flamer targeting a unit which isn't in HtH, you can't place the template in such a way that it would cover any models in HtH.

Same idea with Jaws. Since it's specifically defined as a psychic shooting attack, it can't be used on models in HtH, even if it were targeting some other unit.

So if I am standing half way between a Rune Priest and a combat within 24" of each other I can't be targetted by JotWW as it would hit the combat which is illegal.

Mannahnin wrote:We had this discussion recently. The rule which forbids shooting into HtH doesn't say anything about targeting.

Hi Mannahnin. Could you post the actual rule. I was pretty sure that the rules for shooting say that you may not "target" a unit in HtH.

You simply can't shoot models in HtH. Even, for example, with a flamer targeting a unit which isn't in HtH, you can't place the template in such a way that it would cover any models in HtH.

The rules for template weapons specifically state that you may not place the template over units that are locked in HtH.

wyomingfox wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:We had this discussion recently. The rule which forbids shooting into HtH doesn't say anything about targeting.

Hi Mannahnin. Could you post the actual rule. I was pretty sure that the rules for shooting say that you may not "target" a unit in HtH.

Since you asked nicely...

Page 40 SHOOTING INTO AND OUT OF CLOSE COMBAT wrote:Models belonging to units locked in combat may not fire weapons in the Shooting phase. Their attention is completely taken by the swirling melee. Likewise, while expecially twisted and soulless commanders may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the hopes of hitting the enemy, this is not permitted. The events in a close combat mov too quickly and the warriors themselves will be understandably hesitant about firing on their comrades.

There is another paragraph specifically stating that blast markers and templates cannot be placed so as to cover any models locked in combat, although blasts may scatter there.

Targeting is no part of it. A shooting attack can never go into close combat, except for a blast scattering.

Thanks Mannahnin, I stand corrected.

Mannahnin wrote:
Since you asked nicely...

Page 40 SHOOTING INTO AND OUT OF CLOSE COMBAT wrote:Models belonging to units locked in combat may not fire weapons in the Shooting phase. Their attention is completely taken by the swirling melee. Likewise, while expecially twisted and soulless commanders may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the hopes of hitting the enemy, this is not permitted. The events in a close combat mov too quickly and the warriors themselves will be understandably hesitant about firing on their comrades.

There is another paragraph specifically stating that blast markers and templates cannot be placed so as to cover any models locked in combat, although blasts may scatter there.

Targeting is no part of it. A shooting attack can never go into close combat, except for a blast scattering.

This paragraph is not part of the shooting section (it is in the close combat section) and appears to be more of a fluff based rehash of the rules in the shooting section than a new rule of its own. The shooting rules already cover this, Page 16, first paragraph "A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in close combat as its target". As long as you follow the rules for valid target selection and draw your line through that target first, you can hit models in close combat, as well as "friendly" models (another thing that is not permitted normally). Everything else gets hit "on the way through" as the FAQ states.

wolvesoffenris wrote:This paragraph is not part of the shooting section

And?

The rules are all rules. They cross reference the phases rather often.

wolvesoffenris wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
Since you asked nicely...

Page 40 SHOOTING INTO AND OUT OF CLOSE COMBAT wrote:Models belonging to units locked in combat may not fire weapons in the Shooting phase. Their attention is completely taken by the swirling melee. Likewise, while expecially twisted and soulless commanders may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the hopes of hitting the enemy, this is not permitted. The events in a close combat mov too quickly and the warriors themselves will be understandably hesitant about firing on their comrades.

There is another paragraph specifically stating that blast markers and templates cannot be placed so as to cover any models locked in combat, although blasts may scatter there.

Targeting is no part of it. A shooting attack can never go into close combat, except for a blast scattering.

This paragraph is not part of the shooting section (it is in the close combat section) and appears to be more of a fluff based rehash of the rules in the shooting section than a new rule of its own.

It's a rule. It's a rule specifically labeled as and pertaining to shooting into and out of close combat. It's more detailed, specific, and comprehensive than the related rules in the shooting section.

kirsanth wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:This paragraph is not part of the shooting section

And?

The rules are all rules. They cross reference the phases rather often.

That is true, but you need to read the rest of the post. That paragraph is a fluff paragraph (which I was pointing out was not even in the shooting section), not a rule, there is no definition of "commander" or "warrior" in 40k, or any rules for how they interact with the game. There are players, models and units clearly defined in rulebook and the shooting section tells you how they may interact in the game. Use the rules to play the game, not some vague fluffy paragraph that poorly restates the rules covered in the shooting section using terms that have no meaning in the rules.

In summary, as long as your initial target is correct, you can hit close combat and friendly models with the remainder of the 24" line.

wolvesoffenris wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote:This paragraph is not part of the shooting section

And?

The rules are all rules. They cross reference the phases rather often.

That is true, but you need to read the rest of the post.

I did, but it was based on that erroneous assumption.

wolvesoffenris wrote:In summary, as long as your initial target is correct, you can hit close combat and friendly models with the remainder of the 24" line.

In summary, as long as your initial target does not cause an illegal shot, you can.
So, not in this case.

Editing to add:
iirc I argued very much what you are saying, about a year ago or so. Rules, FAQs, and debate has since proven it an invalid stance.

wolvesoffenris wrote: That paragraph is a fluff paragraph (which I was pointing out was not even in the shooting section), not a rule, there is no definition of "commander" or "warrior" in 40k, or any rules for how they interact with the game. There are players, models and units clearly defined in rulebook and the shooting section tells you how they may interact in the game. Use the rules to play the game, not some vague fluffy paragraph that poorly restates the rules covered in the shooting section using terms that have no meaning in the rules.

No, I'm sorry, you're mistaken.

It is a rule. It's the rule you find under the heading "SHOOTING INTO & OUT OF CLOSE COMBAT".

By espousing the idea that we are supposed to ignore this section because it's not in the shooting rules (already a dubious position), you're also supporting the idea that we ignore this section's instructions about template and blast marker weapons, and the rule (the section's third paragraph) telling us that units in cc don't have to take morale or pinning tests from shooting casualties.

There's still nothing there saying that units in close combat can't be hit by weapons if they are accidentally in the way or otherwise considered collateral damage. Even the rule that was posted is referring to those units being the direct target.

You can't specifically target units in CC but seeing as JoTWW isn't a template weapon (so those rules don't even apply) and has an area of affect that is a 24" line, just because an ancillary unit gets caught in the effect and they were in CC doesn't mean you can't use the attack since your valid target was NOT in CC.

Mannahnin wrote:

wolvesoffenris wrote: That paragraph is a fluff paragraph (which I was pointing out was not even in the shooting section), not a rule, there is no definition of "commander" or "warrior" in 40k, or any rules for how they interact with the game. There are players, models and units clearly defined in rulebook and the shooting section tells you how they may interact in the game. Use the rules to play the game, not some vague fluffy paragraph that poorly restates the rules covered in the shooting section using terms that have no meaning in the rules.

No, I'm sorry, you're mistaken.

It is a rule. It's the rule you find under the heading "SHOOTING INTO & OUT OF CLOSE COMBAT".

By espousing the idea that we are supposed to ignore this section because it's not in the shooting rules (already a dubious position), you're also supporting the idea that we ignore this section's instructions about template and blast marker weapons, and the rule (the section's third paragraph) telling us that units in cc don't have to take morale or pinning tests from shooting casualties.

The point I was trying to make is the following.

The paragraph in question tells you that a "commander" cannot order "warriors" to shoot in close combat. There are no such things as a "commander or "warrior" defined in the rulebook, so even if you believe that this is intended to be a rule, it cannot be applied. The rest of that section is clearly rules. They tell you that you cannot place templates or blast markers over "models" and that "units" in combat don't have to take morale or pinning. These are clearly rules and can be applied to the defined objects "model" and "unit" in the rulebook. Quote the rulebook page for me that tells you what a "commander" or "warrior" is and how they interact with the game and I will concede to you that it is a rule. Otherwise, it is just fluff and you should just follow the normal targeting rules from the book. Which would allow you to pick a target that has a friendly model or close combat behind it.

The quote never mentions targeting, and thus prevents shooting--which is what it states and is listed as a rule for.

You are under the erroneous assumption that the ruleset is entirely internally defined. You can take that position once you find a definition for "the" in the rulebook.

Kevin949 wrote:There's still nothing there saying that units in close combat can't be hit by weapons if they are accidentally in the way or otherwise considered collateral damage. Even the rule that was posted is referring to those units being the direct target.

You can't specifically target units in CC but seeing as JoTWW isn't a template weapon (so those rules don't even apply) and has an area of affect that is a 24" line, just because an ancillary unit gets caught in the effect and they were in CC doesn't mean you can't use the attack since your valid target was NOT in CC.

The paragraph contains fluff justification (as many rules paragraphs in 40k do), but it also contains a flat prohibition on any shooting into close combat:

The Rulebook wrote:...commanders may wish their warriors to fire indiscriminately into the middle of close combats in the hopes of hitting the enemy, this is not permitted.

Targeting is no part of it. If it's a shooting attack, you cannot use it in such a way as to hit models in close combat (with the exclicit exception of blasts scattering, as long as they weren't initially placed to cover any models in an assault). JotWW is defined as a shooting attack, and thus cannot be used in such a way as to affect models in an assault.

So firing a blast weapon with the hopes that it scatters and hits a unit in CC is disallowed?

As stated in the JoTWW FAQ, "the primary target must be a valid target, everyone else just happens to get hit."

You're thinking too linear in the standard shooting rules but JOTWW does not follow standard shooting rules. Unlike standard shooting it does not stop at the model/unit you are targeting. Unlike standard shooting, if you target a model behind another unit or a wall it does not grant cover saves. The only rule of standard shooting that it actually follows is that your primary target must be a valid target (In LOS and not locked in combat). Since no one else is actually a target and is just collateral damage, it doesn't discriminate since all the other models "just happen to get hit".

Kevin949 wrote:So firing a blast weapon with the hopes that it scatters and hits a unit in CC is disallowed?

If not for a specific allowance for that exact occurance, yes.

Editing to add:
Targeting is still 100% irrelevant to the posted rules.

Units in CC cannot be shot.
This is in addition to the targeting rules, and excepted by the blast rules.

Well, I disagree with you in that all units "must" choose a target for shooting and there are only very few that allow you to choose multiple targets (Tau crisis suits with that one upgrade, for instance) but all those targets still must be valid. JoTWW only allows for ONE target but still affects all along its path beyond the primary target.

Kevin949 wrote:So firing a blast weapon with the hopes that it scatters and hits a unit in CC is disallowed?

Why would you even post this? Blast weapons cannot be placed so as to cover any models in HTH. There is a specific rule allowing them to hit models in assault IF they scatter there.

Kevin949 wrote:As stated in the JoTWW FAQ, "the primary target must be a valid target, everyone else just happens to get hit."

"Everyone else"? By this do you think they could also mean "everyone else on the table", or perhaps "everyone else in your opponent's army"? No, I guess you think it means "everyone else on the line" but that's not correct.

The "everybody else" in the FAQ answer clearly refers to "everybody else who's affected". Remember that vehicles can be crossed by the line for Jaws, but are unaffected by it. Using your over-broad reading of "everybody else" you'd be affecting vehicles too.

Kevin949 wrote:You're thinking too linear in the standard shooting rules but JOTWW does not follow standard shooting rules. Unlike standard shooting it does not stop at the model/unit you are targeting. Unlike standard shooting, if you target a model behind another unit or a wall it does not grant cover saves. The only rule of standard shooting that it actually follows is that your primary target must be a valid target (In LOS and not locked in combat). Since no one else is actually a target and is just collateral damage, it doesn't discriminate since all the other models "just happen to get hit".

Okay; the rules are permissive, telling us how we may do things. The way special rules work is to create exceptions to the rules. These exceptions are specific and limited; a special rule overrules the regular rules only where it explicitly tells us that it does, and in ways which are implicitly necessary for us to get it to work.

So, for example, in the case of a Nob with a Powerklaw making a drive-by attack via a Boarding Plank against an enemy Dreadnought, we know that the Boarding Plank creates a specific exception for the Ork model to make his attacks "as if charging", but this does not mean we can infer that the Nob somehow is actually disembarked from the vehicle, or that the Dreadnought can attack him back. Both of those things would require additional violations of basic rules, and are not expressly permitted by the Boarding Plank rules or implicitly required to make its rules work.

In the case of JotWW, GW has specifically defined it as being a Psychic Shooting Attack. This means it follows all the rules for those, and thus for all Shooting Attacks, unless explicitly granted permission to violate a clause of them, or unless we implicitly need to violate one to make Jaws work.

Jaws has several exceptions explicitly started or implied in its rules, but there is nothing in them allowing or requiring that the power be able to fire into HtH.