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Hi guys,

I'm new to this whole wargaming thing, so I need some major tips. First, I have bought the Assault on Black Reach with a friend, him orks, me the marines. But now I must expand my army in hopes that I don't get crushed by the greenskins. So where should I begin? I love sniper rifles in practice, but would the scouts that hold them be as effective as other units? I would love to have an all black stealth army, but how would I configure this? Any and all tips and suggestions are appreciated!


Thanks,
Wes

I'd say get a razorback. The razor back set is 5 more bucks than the rhino set and you can make either one from the razorback set.

You'd be surprised how much difference it makes having a transport for your tac squad. Faster and live longer!!

That and get another tac squad. You can buy another black reach one from ebay or split another box with your buddy.

Ok, thanks rdlb. do you recommend scouts? or are they just a waste of points? I would really like a stealthy army.





Thanks,
Wes

Scouts can be great when played properly. Make use of their Scout and Infiltrate. Just remember that they have BS3 which gives only half a chance of hitting the target, then half a chance of wounding it.

Your friend might deploy his army as close to the front as possible, attempting to get into assault. Infiltrate behind the lines and pin them with the sniper rifles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For objective based games, you can outflank in the later turns of the game to contest objectives close to the sides.

Wesawesome wrote:Ok, thanks rdlb. do you recommend scouts? or are they just a waste of points? I would really like a stealthy army.

Thanks,
Wes

Scouts are hit or miss, if your playing against an army with high toughness models then they can be effective. If your not then your in most cases your better off with more tactical marines.

To enxpand on the models you currently have I'd suggest getting either some heavy support or some fast attack options. Although you'd probably gain more effectiveness from purchaseing the Cyclon Missle Launcher for your terminators.

Space Marines don't really do stealth, big suits of blue, green or red armor just don't blend in well. If you really want to go the stealth route look into the Raven Guard, they will play like normal Space Marines, but their fluff and color scheme match what you want to do.

You should probably look into a rhino/razorback kit as was mentioned and another squad of tacticals.
If you want scouts, then try them out. maybe proxy some in a game against your buddy and see how you like them. Fair warning though, Sniper scouts aren't super impressive against Orks. You will see much more value on them against MCs.

A configuration you might like against Orks might be CC or shotgun scouts on a Land Speeder Storm with a Heavy flamer. Add a combi-Flamer to the scout sergeant and you will have a super mobile Ork smiting platform.

I think scouts are great, but not sniper scouts, scouts with two close combat weapons that infiltrate or outflank can be really good. You can give the sarge a powerfist to go after vehicles.

5 scouts can definitely do well in assault against orks if they get the charge, you just have to pick your target. For example, assaulting 5 lootas is a good idea, assaulting 5 nobz is a bad idea.

Or this

"A configuration you might like against Orks might be CC or shotgun scouts on a Land Speeder Storm with a Heavy flamer. Add a combi-Flamer to the scout sergeant and you will have a super mobile Ork smiting platform."

But they get more expensive

How is scouts without a LSS going to get the charge vs Orks? CCW scouts must have a speeder.

Heavy Flamer LSS 5xCCW Scouts with combiflamer and PF is a force no one should take too lightly. Clocks in at 170pts

rdlb wrote:

"A configuration you might like against Orks might be CC or shotgun scouts on a Land Speeder Storm with a Heavy flamer. Add a combi-Flamer to the scout sergeant and you will have a super mobile Ork smiting platform."

But they get more expensive

But that config should wipe out a mob of 20 Ork shootas and you can do that turn 1 and it's awesome aginst most aou can nail soft targets and battle tanks due to the Powerfist. Sniper Scouts can also be good but just don't rate them on kills they don't really do damage they are there to camp on an objective and not get shot to death. That is it.

The best next thing to buy is the Battleforce kit. After that, I recommend a Predator. The pred is the best bang for the buck vehicle in the SM army, maybe the whole game.

I also strongly recommend Sternguard elites. They will help with your stealthy army. You can get the metal Sternguard kit if you like, but all you have to do is paint a regular squad so they stand out; usually with white helmets. They go good in drop pods, so a drop pod is a good idea.

Snipers are never a bad idea and very good for a lower point army as they are considered a troop choice. Consider sgt. Tellion so you can call your shots with him, target an Ork Mob and kill the boss.

At some point very soon, you'll want a landraider. Get the Crusader kit and install hurricane bolters. This is a very fast and efficient killer with 14 armor.

It sounds like you're just starting out, so maybe you don't want to drop a ton of money on Terminators, but Lightning Claw Assault Terminators would do great against an Ork army.

MisterMoon wrote:I also strongly recommend Sternguard elites. They will help with your stealthy army. You can get the metal Sternguard kit if you like, but all you have to do is paint a regular squad so they stand out; usually with white helmets. They go good in drop pods, so a drop pod is a good idea.

If you buy Sternguard and want to handle a big squad of Orks, give them all Combi-Flamers and a Drop Pod, so they can pop out and waste an entire unit very fast.

Ok. Thank you all for your input. I will go over it all and let you guys know what my final decision is.




Thanks,
Wes

Tylerkabana wrote:It sounds like you're just starting out, so maybe you don't want to drop a ton of money on Terminators, but Lightning Claw Assault Terminators would do great against an Ork army.

MisterMoon wrote:I also strongly recommend Sternguard elites. They will help with your stealthy army. You can get the metal Sternguard kit if you like, but all you have to do is paint a regular squad so they stand out; usually with white helmets. They go good in drop pods, so a drop pod is a good idea.

If you buy Sternguard and want to handle a big squad of Orks, give them all Combi-Flamers and a Drop Pod, so they can pop out and waste an entire unit very fast.

Good call on the combi flamers against orks. You'll find that some marines can have a combi weapon, read up on those.

Let me give some more advice. You get 3 elite units per army MAX, in a 1500 pts army that's not enough, so have 3 elite units ready to go in any game and strive to always max out with 3 elite units when ever you field an army- they are that good at what they do. Also plan to use both of your HQ slots, the best idea is have them compliment each other, or directly assist a unit they are attached to. For instance you can hop out of the drop pod with a 5 man sternguard sq and a Librarian who has a Gate of infinity spell. That spell allows your sterns to warp around the table, staying out of assaults so they can shoot, which is what they do best. Also, like said above assault termis with lighting claws are a good investment, attach a Chaplain in termi armour to the lightning claw termis and you can re-roll all misses and failed wounds. LC ignore all but invulnerable saves. Generally I cause 15 unsaved wounds on average with this combo. That would wipe out a whole space marine tactical squad.
Also as for HQ's read the special characters Shrike, Padro, Lysander et al. on pg. 130 of your codex. Everyone has their favorites; mine is Shrike who gives your whole army fleet of foot, but honestly I like them all. Attach Lysander to a reg termi squad and re-roll misses with your storm bolters using his bolt drill special rule and lay down the dakka.

One more thing to purchase, that is the Space Marine Captain box. It has lots and lots of bits for combis etc so you can really expand your collection. You can also build your very own unique captain which is the crown jewel of your army.

All i can say is get lots of flamers!

It sounds like you're just starting out, so maybe you don't want to drop a ton of money on Terminators, but Lightning Claw Assault Terminators would do great against an Ork army.

Don't do this never ever take lightening claw terminators. You can upgrade them to the superior TH/SS Terminators for free, so always do it. There is a reason that option is more expensive in every other entry in the codex and everyone elses codex since the change to SSs it is just a better option. Yes even against Orks where the only units Terminators are ideally suited to dealling with are Nobz, ID and a 3++ save are great against Nobz particularly the Nob bikerz...

FlingitNow wrote:

It sounds like you're just starting out, so maybe you don't want to drop a ton of money on Terminators, but Lightning Claw Assault Terminators would do great against an Ork army.

Don't do this never ever take lightening claw terminators. You can upgrade them to the superior TH/SS Terminators for free, so always do it. There is a reason that option is more expensive in every other entry in the codex and everyone elses codex since the change to SSs it is just a better option. Yes even against Orks where the only units Terminators are ideally suited to dealling with are Nobz, ID and a 3++ save are great against Nobz particularly the Nob bikerz...

I wouldn't say THs are definitively better than LCs. First things first, the reason they are free is that because the 2 LCs are free (usually a 30 pt upgrade on a vet), and the storm shield is less useful for termi as you already have a 2+ armor save so the 3+ invul is less useful. Secondly, with LCs you get 20 dice to hit with on a charge, at full initative (5 man LC termis.) With THs you only get 15 on a charge. With LCs you can re-roll wounds. With TH you have initative 1, so you might not even have a termi when it's your turn. The 3+ invul is nice with the storm shield but you already have a 2+ with termi armor, so you'll use it a lot less (this is why it's less of a bargain; we are talking termis.)
Assuming all of your TH termis make it to their turn, and with the str 8 hits, you will score more unsaved wounds with the LCs against avg to slightly above avg units (Toughness 3-5 range.) Against very powerful units, your str 8 TH might serve you better, but so is the likelyhood that you take casaulties before it's your turn to swing. Against armor however the THs are clearly the better choice with the crew stunned rule. In short, I'd either take an asslt termi squad with either all LCs or 3 LCs and 2 THs, but rarely a whole squad of THs.

Now, I love THs, but to definitively say they are the much better deal doesn't look at the whole picture.

I wouldn't say THs are definitively better than LCs. First things first, the reason they are free is that because the 2 LCs are free (usually a 30 pt upgrade on a vet), and the storm shield is less useful for termi as you already have a 2+ armor save so the 3+ invul is less useful.

?!?!?! 3++ is more useful to a terminator because he has a 2+ save! 3++ on a 3+ save model isn't a huge boon as you can just get boned by torrent fire were 3++ is irrelevant. Terminators laugh at torrent fire because of their 2+ and then laugh at high quality (but lower quantity) fire because the 3++.

Secondly, with LCs you get 20 dice to hit with on a charge, at full initative (5 man LC termis.) With THs you only get 15 on a charge. With LCs you can re-roll wounds. With TH you have initative 1, so you might not even have a termi when it's your turn. The 3+ invul is nice with the storm shield but you already have a 2+ with termi armor, so you'll use it a lot less (this is why it's less of a bargain; we are talking termis.)

Again sorry what? Terminators 2+ armour save means that generally people fire high AP low volumme fire at them as there are few of them or they smash them apart with deathstars. Hammernators walk through those things. If they're taking a 2+ save you're using them wrong. Whilst the LCs get to attack first and re-roll what is the point when they are either wounding 5s or 6s (compared to 2s) or doing half the damage of the TH/SS for each hit? Then dying twice as fast to reprisals...

Assuming all of your TH termis make it to their turn, and with the str 8 hits, you will score more unsaved wounds with the LCs against avg to slightly above avg units (Toughness 3-5 range.) Against very powerful units, your str 8 TH might serve you better, but so is the likelyhood that you take casaulties before it's your turn to swing. Against armor however the THs are clearly the better choice with the crew stunned rule. In short, I'd either take an asslt termi squad with either all LCs or 3 LCs and 2 THs, but rarely a whole squad of THs.

Your Terminators shouldn't be fighting average units. They should be fighting MCs and Nob bikers and other deathstars. Against these types of unit the TH/SS massively out shines the LCs. Against Hordes the LCs do better but they are still not an efficient use of your Terminators (hordes are your enemy due to your low model count and no sweeping advance). Against MEQ units you will mince them either way so it is largely irrelevant. In fact the TH/SS tendancy to do this in 2 rounds rather than 1 is actually a boon.

There is no reason you would ever take lightening claw Terminators in the Vanilla codex if you want to win games. In this codex they are useless when compared to the TH/SS deathstar. Ther is a reason why that combo is more expensive in every other codex (look at BA and SW and the BA Lightening Claws are far better due to FC). There is a reason that no tournament SM army takes anything other than all TH/SS. That is a far far far better option all round.

I get that TH termis are great, but you still haven't given me reason to believe that they are as definitively better as you claim. You've listed some circumstances here and there where the SS is useful for it's 3+ invul, but haven't really gave a good way to make up for the loss of initative, and the fact that LC termis can re roll wounds, and I almost always deliver more unsaved wounds with LCs. My assault termis are almost always in assault so being shot at is less of a concern, which is another reason why the storm shield is less of a bargain.

Granted TH have their uses, and I bring them along more often than not, but writing off LCs isn't something I plan on doing anytime soon. Not by a long shot.

I have had good luck winning games with LC termis. I use my assault termies to charge into units and completely wipe them out. I can best do this with LCs and THs or just LC's.

Wesawesome wrote: I love sniper rifles in practice, but would the scouts that hold them be as effective as other units? I would love to have an all black stealth army, but how would I configure this? Any and all tips and suggestions are appreciated!

1 scout squad will suit your needs. They should sit on an objective in your back line and snipe the enemy. They fill that role perfectly.

If your just getting started, you should know that transports are critical in the game. Pick up a razorback or two (you can run it as a rhino if you model it using magnets).

Some of the marines in your set can be used as ternguard, which are very good units. Just change the color you paint the heads.

Welcome to the fun world of 40k!

My assault termis are almost always in assault so being shot at is less of a concern, which is another reason why the storm shield is less of a bargain.

Granted TH have their uses, and I bring them along more often than not, but writing off LCs isn't something I plan on doing anytime soon. Not by a long shot.

I have had good luck winning games with LC termis. I use my assault termies to charge into units and completely wipe them out. I can best do this with LCs and THs or just LC's.

Well you've just contradicted yourself there. If you wipe out the unit your charge you won't be in assault so you will be shot at. Plus the 3++ is hugely usefull in assault as almost all the attacks you're likely to face will be power weapon attacks. Between power claws/fists and MC attacks and just basic PW you're likely to be facing lots of attacks that ignore your 2+ save. If not you are charging the wrong types of target...

Basically I get the feeling you are playing with and against uncompetitive lists. Therefore using your assault terminators to beat up on tac squads seems good and effective. In competitive play LC Terminators have no place in a Vanilla list. You have other things that can do that job better for fewer points.

FlingitNow wrote:

My assault termis are almost always in assault so being shot at is less of a concern, which is another reason why the storm shield is less of a bargain.

Granted TH have their uses, and I bring them along more often than not, but writing off LCs isn't something I plan on doing anytime soon. Not by a long shot.

I have had good luck winning games with LC termis. I use my assault termies to charge into units and completely wipe them out. I can best do this with LCs and THs or just LC's.

Well you've just contradicted yourself there. If you wipe out the unit your charge you won't be in assault so you will be shot at. Plus the 3++ is hugely usefull in assault as almost all the attacks you're likely to face will be power weapon attacks. Between power claws/fists and MC attacks and just basic PW you're likely to be facing lots of attacks that ignore your 2+ save. If not you are charging the wrong types of target...

Basically I get the feeling you are playing with and against uncompetitive lists. Therefore using your assault terminators to beat up on tac squads seems good and effective. In competitive play LC Terminators have no place in a Vanilla list. You have other things that can do that job better for fewer points.

Let's step away from the fire for a bit shall we?

TH/SS terms are better in general. As said previously, you shouldn't be going after average joes with your terms, that's what sternguard/dreads/tanks/ shooting is for. By all means you can use your terms to fill a different role: i.e. ultra infantry stomper. But then they will attract even more fire because they are less durable. And because they are less durable, they will not survive it. They are also just as susceptible to dread nought tarpitting as your standard TAC marines.. more so now that I think about it.

Strengths of LC terms Strengths of TH/SS terms
extremely good at taking out MEQ and even GEQ Put serious hurt on t4 IC,
very durable against small arms fire very durable against small arms fire
Cannot be tarpitted very well by large weak horde squads Can kill tanks with weak rear armour very easily
more attacks cannot be tarpitted by dreadnoughts
strike at initiative order durable against low ap weapons (27% fatality rate from str 6 ap 2 or better)
Can handle t6 models with relative ease
can instant death t4 models


Weaknesses Weaknesses
Cannot deal well with t6 or higher do not strike at initiative order
cannot instant death Can be slowed down by large horde squads
Have no ability to kill a dreadnought fewer attacks
have no ability to kill tanks
less durable against low ap weapons (55% fatality rate)

The way I see it, with a direct comparison, TH/SS terms come out a little bit on top. However, I think that taking 1 LC term and 4 th/ss term is a much better solution than taking 5 th/ss terms. This helps mitigate the disadvantages of both units... that is... unless you're taking Vulkan... in which case you should just take the TH

FlingitNow: Quit attacking MisterMoon. If he wishes to take something you deem "uncompetitive", then thats his choice. Maybe he doesn't wish to compete, but mearly to have some fun. Winning isn't everything. I think you can both agree that LC's and TH's both have their place, and that you agree to disagree. If MisterMoon likes to take Lightning Claws and they work for him, let him do so.

However, I think that taking 1 LC term and 4 th/ss term is a much better solution than taking 5 th/ss terms.

How? Why would taking 1 weaker option improve the squad over taking none? Is the 1 extra attack going to make a difference against a Horde? Is the striking at I going to make a telling difference against any type of opponent, given it is just 1 model?

Is having 1 less model to attack that fex or Dread or Soulgrinder going to hurt your chances? yes and could result in facing and entire extra round of attacks. Is having that 1 more model easier to kill going to hurt such a low model count unit? yes can cause issues with combat res and in such a low model count unit every life is precious. Plus you'll be tempted to stack more wounds on the TH/SS guys before they strike due to their better invun further weakening the squad...

Look at the strengths and weaknesses you put down. Look at the targets you should be facing. You'll notice the TH/SS weaknesses aren't an issue against those targets, you'll notice the LC ones are. Look at the strengths you'll notice the TH/SS ones are great against those targets you'll notice the LCs strengths aren't of real benefit.

FlingitNow wrote:

However, I think that taking 1 LC term and 4 th/ss term is a much better solution than taking 5 th/ss terms.

How? Why would taking 1 weaker option improve the squad over taking none? Is the 1 extra attack going to make a difference against a Horde? Is the striking at I going to make a telling difference against any type of opponent, given it is just 1 model?


... and the other stuff

It's not just taking 1 extra attack. It's taking 3 attacks that have a 8/9 chance of wounding vs toughness three and strike first vs I 3 or less. as for the rest...

honestly? It's not going to hurt your durability in any way until your down to the last two models. I agree that your terms SHOULD be facing higher profile models, but if your opponent is fielding tarpits, then that LC may help you break out sooner than... say the end of the game.

Vs anything other than that? Yes, hammers are better by an order of magnitude, but I kind of like having some insurance against the possibility of something wrong happening. The math is long and annoying but here goes

VS GEQ (we'll say 20 two joined squads):
If charged:

shooting from s 3 bs 3 causes 20/36 wounds= 5/12

3 LC: 2/3*8/9 =16/27*3= 48/27= 16/9 so 1 7/9 wounds

40 attacks: 1/2*1/3*1/6= 1/36 so 40/36 = aprox 1 1/2 wounds when adding previous wounds

6 TH: 2/3*5/6= 10/18*6= 30/9 so 3 and 3/9 wounds for a total of 5 and 1/9

Moral? inconclusive IG probably pass

next round:
IG get 17 attacks, cause less than 1/2 wound per assault phase, termies take about 3 more rounds of combat to win kill just about everything. Lose one more guy


without LC attacks:
5/12 wounds from shooting
CC from the charge deals 1 and 1/9 in unsaved wounds
termies respond: dealing 4 and 4/9 wounds

Next round: IG have 18 attacks, bring down second termie, and take terms from dealing 4 and change to 3 and a third.
Next round IG have 15 attacks, deal 5/12 casualty, terms take squad down by 4 and take it to 9 guys
Next round IG have 11 attacks, deal almost 4/12 casualty, terms take squad down to 6 guys
Next round: IG have 8 attacks, bring down third terminator from aproximately another 3/12 attacks
Next round: IG have 5 attacks, deal less than 1/6 terms

That said, IG will probably start breaking by the 4th combat round. But if they don't then you've just lost another terminator, and the entire IG squad has not only made its points back but have stalled you for 2 whole turns

So yeah... that's the kind of situation I plan against...



Anyway, back to the OP (so sorry for jacking your thread):

Marines can't really do stealth all that well. They have scouts... which are okay, scout bikers which are okay but best in very specific roles, they also have shrike who only lets one more squad be stealthy (assault terminators) and Sicarius who's kind of crappy.

Sicarius is fail.

If my Terminatorss are tarpited i'd send something like Scouts to clear out the unit.

You say the survivability doesn't matter until you're down to 2 guys but that greatly depends on the number of saves you having to take. It is vvery likely to matter before that. The issue is what you are giving up.

Say a Carnifex charges in and kills a Terminator. Your 5 man squad is now a 3 man squad trying to deal with it. Rather than a 4 man so you're giving up 33% of your attacks just because you won't support your unit if it gets tarpitted? If it kills 2 the situation is worse as you're now giving up 50% of your attacks. With Bioplasma or just bad savings throws it is far from out of the question to lose 2 guys to a charge from a Carnifex. Likewise a Charge from a Trygon Prime. It'll hit with 75% of its attacks and could even kill a guy with shooting before going in (with 12 shots and on average about 4 wounds not out of the question at all).

Or in combat with a Walker or Nob bikers. That guy your carrying could be the difference between winning or losing rather than how quickly you clear out a tarpit.

So basically are you willing to fail at your primary role in order that you suck slightly less in a situation you don't want to be in. Personaly I'm not. You might think it is a worth while trade in.

But would you drop a heavy weapon from a Devastator squad to equipe the sarge with a powerfist? Because that is what you're doing by taking a LC Terminator...