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There seems to be a lot of confusion on the nature of gods in 40K, so I will atempt to clear this up as best as I can.

There are three basic types of higher beings (We are assuming that throughout this thread, I am refering to 40K), C'Tan, Gods, and Chaos gods. Each has a certain set of traits that defines them. To understand these, we have to take a look at the past, before the Imperium, even before the Old Ones. In the beginning, the warp was basically nothing but a place for emotions. Eventually the Old Ones created races, such as the Eldar, with connections to the warp. When certain emotions were frequent enough, they pooled together to create demons, and eventually Chaos Gods. The Chaos Gods represent the vices of all creatures connected to the warp. The stronger these emotions become, the more powerful the Chaos Gods become. Chaos God's influence reach across all races with connections to the warp. One of their defining traits is their masocism. Each Chaos God exhibits self-destructive tendencies. Example: Malal, the renegade Chaos God of hating Chaos God. Malal hates Chaos Gods, yet he is one himself.

NOTE: There are three renegade chaos gods: Malal, Necoho, and Zuvassin. GW no longer holds the copyright, so they cannot write about them.

How your normal "God" is created is completely unexplained in 40K fluff. They are specific to one race, such as the Ork Gods Mork and Gork. Gods show all of the traits of the races they represent. Sometimes there are multiple gods to represent multiple traits, as is the case with the Eldar. They rarely intervene outside of Mythology. The Emperor is a special case. He is the human god, and exhibits a major trait of humanity - mortality. The Emperor is not simply a human, he is the best a human can possibly be. His mortal form is more perfect than even the Primarchs, and the Primarchs show his power to manipulate the human form. Gods often times have champions in a similar way to chaos gods, such as Avatars of Khaine, Ghazgull Thraka, and the Sensei of the Emperor.

NOTE: There is some debate as to the exact nature of the Emperor. I believe that the Emperor is the God of humanity. Some believe that he is simply an extraordinary human. In more recent editions of 40K publications, GW has become increasingly vague about many things involving the nature of the Emperor, his exploits, the primarchs, and many more important topics. A wealth of imformation can be found from reading old Chapter Approved and White Dwarf magazine.

The C'Tan were once powerful intelligences that fed on stars. They were discovered by the Necontyr, and worshipped as gods. The Necontyr used their technology to give them bodies of living metal. Once in a physical form, they found a taste for souls. Due to the efforts of the C'Tan, The Deceiver, the Necontyr are the Necrons whe know (And love?) today. There are four C'Tan gods today. You are probably familiar with the Nightbringer and The Deceiver from the Nectron Codex. There is also the Outsider, the insane C'Tan god who lives in the void of space, and the Void Dragon (a.k.a. The Omnissiah). The Void Dragon is the most powerful C'Tan, and has a strnage control over machines. It was subjected and forced into subservience by the Emperor, and now sleeps on Mars.

NOTE: The Void Dragon is more commonly named in fluff simply as the "Dragon."

I hope you have been enlightened by my post, and if you disagree, I will be happy to listen.

Is Malal even an actually chaos god? And if he is i would like to see some proof. I don't recall reading anything about him, but then maybe i havent gone through all canon fluff and all.

Also, some things you mentioned are just suspicions, such as the Void Dragon residing on Mars.

There are three renegade chaos god Malal, Necoho and Zuvassin - this is old fluff mind you. I used Malal as an example becuase his is so obviously a paradox. Though another example is Slaanesh - sension until you can't feel any more.

GW rarely goes out and says things, they just give you a suspiscion. Though with GW, a suspicion is as good as them coming out and saying it (Though they never will, 40K is a frozen picture in time).

Thx for the feedback.

Awesome man! I didnt know about them 3 renegades, gonna do some research now. Thx

Since you did invest some time into this, have you found a source that calls the C'tan Void Dragon or not?
I am still waiting for the first to find out why the "Dragon" is called "Void dragon" on the interwebz.

Conservationist wrote:Is Malal even an actually chaos god? And if he is i would like to see some proof. I don't recall reading anything about him, but then maybe i havent gone through all canon fluff and all.

You will no longer find it in any canon material due to the fact that GW do not own the rights to use the character.

Thanks! This was very helpfull (:

but gork and mork, are they real gods or just a part of the imagination of orks?

vleermie wrote:Thanks! This was very helpfull (:

but gork and mork, are they real gods or just a part of the imagination of orks?

They are real just but like orks they are to busy fighting each other to pose a real threat to any one else.

1hadhq wrote:Since you did invest some time into this, have you found a source that calls the C'tan Void Dragon or not?
I am still waiting for the first to find out why the "Dragon" is called "Void dragon" on the interwebz.

Strangely enough, I've never heard it called anything BUT the "Void Dragon."

Mustela wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Since you did invest some time into this, have you found a source that calls the C'tan Void Dragon or not?
I am still waiting for the first to find out why the "Dragon" is called "Void dragon" on the interwebz.

Strangely enough, I've never heard it called anything BUT the "Void Dragon."

Necron codex?
Eldar codex?
HH-Mechanicum?

on all 3 accounts?
IIRC its only Dragon there.

May I ask where you took the reference to Void-Dragon from,please. Any hint greatly appreciated.

Mustela wrote:How your normal "God" is created is completely unexplained in 40K fluff. They are specific to one race, such as the Ork Gods Mork and Gork. Gods show all of the traits of the races they represent. Sometimes there are multiple gods to represent multiple traits, as is the case with the Eldar. They rarely intervene outside of Mythology.

My guess about this category is that they are brought into existence by worship. There is an obvious paradox there as to whether they were worshipped first and then came into existence or vice versa, but I suspect that some glimmer of an idea in the minds of the race that they are attached to sprang forth the cycle of thought worship existence worship existence etc, building on itself in a positive feedback sort of way.

As far as I'm aware, this is the reason posited for the nature of the emperor's suggested godhood.

Citations?

Lexicanum, GW website, Wikia. I think that it is referred to as "The Dragon" in the codex's and such because of the style the codex's were written in. In a lot of Codex fluff, they don't tell you all the details. Example - The IG codex only says that when Yarrick was captured by Ghazgull, it says that Yarrick was released under mysterious circumstances. Further research will tell you that Yarrick was released because Ghazgull wanted a good fight the next time he came to Armageddon. This is because the IG codex is written from an imperial perspective. I assume that the Eldar codex talks about said dragon as a kind of legend. I pretty sure the true name is Void Dragon.


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Nurglitch wrote:Citations?

On the Emperor god thing, this is big stuff. This means that GW, in true GW style, only suggests this. For GW, as suggestion is as good a statement.

Moving onto more solid evidence, the Emperor is one big metaphor for the Imperium.

Now for the facts. This is the being who subdued Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat, who created the primarchs, and who's psychic strength holds the Imperium together, and who conquered the galaxy.

And also, he is the God-Emperor of mankind.

Mustela wrote:Lexicanum, GW website, Wikia. I think that it is referred to as "The Dragon" in the codex's and such because of the style the codex's were written in. In a lot of Codex fluff, they don't tell you all the details. Example - The IG codex only says that when Yarrick was captured by Ghazgull, it says that Yarrick was released under mysterious circumstances. Further research will tell you that Yarrick was released because Ghazgull wanted a good fight the next time he came to Armageddon. This is because the IG codex is written from an imperial perspective. I assume that the Eldar codex talks about said dragon as a kind of legend. I pretty sure the true name is Void Dragon.


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Nurglitch wrote:Citations?

On the Emperor god thing, this is big stuff. This means that GW, in true GW style, only suggests this. For GW, as suggestion is as good a statement.

Moving onto more solid evidence, the Emperor is one big metaphor for the Imperium.

Now for the facts. This is the being who subdued Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat, who created the primarchs, and who's psychic strength holds the Imperium together, and who conquered the galaxy.

And also, he is the God-Emperor of mankind.

What you have presented is your theory not a 'summary of'. Providing actual sources would help your point.

He is the god-emperor because he is worshipped, that doesn't mean he is a warp god.

Nurglitch wrote:Citations?

If I assume that's directed at my ideas, then I've got nothiing concrete. I suspect saying that I'm sure I've read it but can't be fethed to meander through it all and find out where may not satisfy you, and I apologise if that disappoints you. Normally I agree with being more rigorous, but hey, sometimes you slip.

the void dragon, wasnt that in the horus heresy machanicum? they also gave a brief history on how the empourer subduded him (well leaves it to the imagination) and then shipping him off to mars, but i agree they never say what the dragon is, but tbh i thought it was just a very powerful chaos daemon o.o there is no real evidence to prove otherwise, plus there is own two or real cases that mars (while i belive it is infact a tomb world, and that humans are acutally an off bread of the necrons) strong hold, one is the fluff about abaddon summoning the power of the warm to have a sneak peek, another is the necron ships by-passing the minefields and fleets to drop an "unknown package" onto the surface, and the fact the planet was sterotypical of necrons "steralising" =/ but i still just think that "void" dragon is just a daemon i could be wrong but its open to debate is it not?

In 'The Cripple and the Dragon' taken from the background piece Translations Of Pertinent Eldar Mythic Cycles, the ancient Eldar names the C'tan Void-Dragon so it is the Eldar's name for the creature although it is often merely called Dragon which to my mind fits much better with the other names of the C'tan which are one word names.

@ Bluntman. You. Have. Completely. Misunderstood. What. I. Said. Did. You. Even. Read. My Post.

I did NOT say he was a warp god. I am saying he is a god. As I posted, a "God" and a "Warp God" are entirely different things. This is the whole point of this thread, getting who is a "Warp God" and who is a "God" and what each means straightened out.

I will post citations when I have time to, as citations.

Even if I am completely wrong about the Emperor, and he is just some sort of super human. He still exhibits major traits of a God, has Godlike exploits, and is worshipped as a god. However, nothing says that I am wrong, so he must for working purpose at least, be a god.

I will go back and make clear whats fact and whats speculation.


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Gogsnik wrote:In 'The Cripple and the Dragon' taken from the background piece Translations Of Pertinent Eldar Mythic Cycles, the ancient Eldar names the C'tan Void-Dragon so it is the Eldar's name for the creature although it is often merely called Dragon which to my mind fits much better with the other names of the C'tan which are one word names.

Thank you for citing this.

Mustela wrote:Thank you for citing this.

No worries. It often comes up but since that section of background is no-longer hosted on the Games Workshop website it makes it hard for people to track down.

Allow me to correct myself: Please cite primary source documents and page numbers, please.

Clumpski wrote:the void dragon, wasnt that in the horus heresy machanicum? they also gave a brief history on how the empourer subduded him (well leaves it to the imagination) and then shipping him off to mars, but i agree they never say what the dragon is, but tbh i thought it was just a very powerful chaos daemon o.o there is no real evidence to prove otherwise, plus there is own two or real cases that mars (while i belive it is infact a tomb world, and that humans are acutally an off bread of the necrons) strong hold, one is the fluff about abaddon summoning the power of the warm to have a sneak peek, another is the necron ships by-passing the minefields and fleets to drop an "unknown package" onto the surface, and the fact the planet was sterotypical of necrons "steralising" =/ but i still just think that "void" dragon is just a daemon i could be wrong but its open to debate is it not?

The Void Dragon is a C'Tan god, that's for sure. You see, Daemons are made when lumps of emotion in the warp clump together. They are a physical embodiment of a certain vice. The Void Dragon, well, he mostly controls technology (Of course from the Imperium's perspective, technology is a vice).

Mustela wrote:
The Void Dragon is a C'Tan god, that's for sure. You see, Daemons are made when lumps of emotion in the warp clump together. They are a physical embodiment of a certain vice. The Void Dragon, well, he mostly controls technology (Of course from the Imperium's perspective, technology is a vice).

Warp Gods

Star gods,

they both seem to be at extreams of each other, both pure energy and sentiance, leaving on opposite sides of the line, old ones being able to control there own phsyic powers and the empourer living between the void o.o

I have to disagree here. Gods come into existence in the 40k world through the thoughts and feelings of psychic or inherently psychic beings. For example, all Orks have a warp presence, one so particularly strong that the warp presence of all Orks has combined to create Gork and Mork. In the same vein, the Eldar warp presence was so decadent and powerful that it combined and became Slaanesh.

*Quick note: All Orks ARE inherently psychic. This is why Ork technology doesn't work in human or Eldar hands. All humans are also inherently psychic. Hence why the four Chaos Gods came about. However, being inherently psychic doesn't mean that you have psyker powers, but that you have a presence in the warp. Nulls are an example of beings who are not inherently psychic.

The Star Gods are an exception to this. Whether they are deities or just immensely powerful beings worshipped as Gods is debatable. Either way, they are not formed from the Warp =/

while i agree there is one point im not quite keen on, and that is that the warp gods are human created when the elder knew about them before humans were even seeded upon terra (well all bar slaanesh [well you know what i mean]) and ork technology just makes me giggle when i think about it x) a tube, a block and hey, you got a dakka dakka gun! ;D

Cryonicleech wrote:I have to disagree here. Gods come into existence in the 40k world through the thoughts and feelings of psychic or inherently psychic beings. For example, all Orks have a warp presence, one so particularly strong that the warp presence of all Orks has combined to create Gork and Mork. In the same vein, the Eldar warp presence was so decadent and powerful that it combined and became Slaanesh.

*Quick note: All Orks ARE inherently psychic. This is why Ork technology doesn't work in human or Eldar hands. All humans are also inherently psychic. Hence why the four Chaos Gods came about. However, being inherently psychic doesn't mean that you have psyker powers, but that you have a presence in the warp. Nulls are an example of beings who are not inherently psychic.

The Star Gods are an exception to this. Whether they are deities or just immensely powerful beings worshipped as Gods is debatable. Either way, they are not formed from the Warp =/

while this is an acceptable theory, I have never read anything to Gods being warp created.

Mustela wrote:

Gogsnik wrote:In 'The Cripple and the Dragon' taken from the background piece Translations Of Pertinent Eldar Mythic Cycles, the ancient Eldar names the C'tan Void-Dragon so it is the Eldar's name for the creature although it is often merely called Dragon which to my mind fits much better with the other names of the C'tan which are one word names.

Thank you for citing this.

I see.

So anyone typing in "void"dragon is a space elf...

Fascinating how a single storys name for a creature is kept, where actual Background uses an easier variant.

Malal is in some of the BL books(a short story about the Sons of Malice IIRC)

Mustela wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:I have to disagree here. Gods come into existence in the 40k world through the thoughts and feelings of psychic or inherently psychic beings. For example, all Orks have a warp presence, one so particularly strong that the warp presence of all Orks has combined to create Gork and Mork. In the same vein, the Eldar warp presence was so decadent and powerful that it combined and became Slaanesh.

*Quick note: All Orks ARE inherently psychic. This is why Ork technology doesn't work in human or Eldar hands. All humans are also inherently psychic. Hence why the four Chaos Gods came about. However, being inherently psychic doesn't mean that you have psyker powers, but that you have a presence in the warp. Nulls are an example of beings who are not inherently psychic.

The Star Gods are an exception to this. Whether they are deities or just immensely powerful beings worshipped as Gods is debatable. Either way, they are not formed from the Warp =/

while this is an acceptable theory, I have never read anything to Gods being warp created.

?!?!?

Slaanesh WAS made by the Eldar... that makes this much more than a theory. The Eldar Codex, Lexicanum, tons and tons of fluff all state that the Eldar's decadence and perversity lead to the creation of Slaanesh, who prior to that obviously did not exist. This is a direct example of a God being warp created. I'm sure somewhere in the Ork book or on lexicanum there's something about Gork and Mork being similar.

And one more thing: The Chaos Gods are incredibly old, and it wasn't only the Human warp presence that created the Gods, plenty of Eldar aggression and rage helped Khorne rise to prominence. And if I'm not mistaken, the Eldar Empire was at its height when man had just taken his first steps on the world. Khorne's birth comes after this, I believe, somewhere early in human history. Then again, the idea that the Empire was at its height when man did just evolve or whatever can mean anything really...