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heya
After a pretty long break of playing WHFB I found myself interested in reviving my "old" Dark Elves (the last edition...)
I never really played professional games with all the rules, but I have of basic Idea of what the game's like

To come to my question which makes this thread belong in the Tactics section and not somewhere else it that I now wonder what Dark Elves are actually good at...
Their units are pretty expensive (pointcost) but are all T3 and S3. Maybe this is just my influence from 40k, but T3 doesn't last long and S3 doesn't kill that much
I guess there is where the I5 comes in, but I'm not convinced... What are the Dark Elves actually good at? With most units having 5+ or 6+ armor I imagine they kill a couple of guys when hitting first and then just, well, die. Is his true? How do you play Dark Elves?

And now where I'm at it, I might aswell just ask. I was planning to get rid of my spearmen and executioners (even though I love their looks ) and get an next to all cavalry army. Some crossbow guys and spear launchers as a base, then Dark Riders and my beloved Cold One Knights and chariots to open a can of whoop-ass on the enemy (don't worry tactical game play involved not just frontal assaults ) + ofc some mages and Dreadlords. Do you think a cavalry list like that could work or is it better to keep the infantry for troops and just make the elite all cavalry?

lg
FFE

You need to look past the T3, S3 part of the dark elves....the majority of armies are T3, S3 (except WoC, Lizards, Ogres, Dwarfs, Orc's - but not goblins).

What Dark Elves are good at:

Magic - simply put we are one of the best at this phase (outside of Teclis or a Slann). Take lore of shadow on a lvl 4 and even our str 3 guys become deadly.
Eternal Hatred - we reroll missed hit rolls on the first round of combat, whats not to like.
Shooting - sure its str 3 but its AP as well, our xbows with shields also make for a flexible 2nd or 3rd block of infantry when needed.
Monsters - Manticore, Dragon and Hydra... especially the Hydra.
Movement - we are fast, dark elves have fast cav. core in Dark Riders and harpies... combined with scouting shades and enemy warmachiens will be dead by turn 2 if things work in our favor.
Cheap - compared to other elves we have the cheapest units.

What Dark Elves are bad at:

Armor - dark elves struggle against high armor troops, WoC of any color, Brettonians come to mind. We have to rely on Magic to effectively deal with armor or slightly over-cost units, Executioners, Blackguard, Bolt Throwers to get the job done.
T3 - ok so it is a downside but not everyone wants to be an Orc or Dwarf...expect to lose things when close combat hits, however if we have done our job correctly the enemy will be weakened when we hit them.


Your questions:

An all cav. Dark Elf army is fun, but won't win many games. Large blocks of infantry dominate the board due to steadfast, and knights won't win combat on the turn they charge. Unless your running 10+ cav models you can't disrupt ranks. If you want lots of cav. Take a few blocks of spearmen to tie up big blocks (and add ranks). Use dark riders as your fire support/warmachiene hunters, and focus on cav for special units and characters...and bring a hydra or two.

Bolt Throwers - they are the only warmachiene in 8th edition that got toned down. They work off of BS so they will only hit half the time. I like them in certain situations but many people will tell you to take a 2nd hydra.

Good at?

Avoidance army par excellence. They can fire accurate shots, with armour piercing, with a decent range AND move and fire. DR with RXB make excellent harrasing troops (vanguard out to start shooting warmachines early on) as do Shades, with AHW if you want to really knock down war machines / their lightly armoured stuff.

They also have some nasty combat units - especially when you combine a large unit of corsairs or wyches with a Cauldron of Blood BSB.

Cold One Kniights with ASF banner are great fun, or else with the hydra banner for a very killy unit. Add in armour piercing banner as well and you have something that kills whatever it touches, as -2 AS from even your cold ones is not to be sniffed at.

Thanks a lot guys, this actually helped me a lot.
While I think I should try to get the codex and get informed about the new rulebook etc. asap, I think I got a pretty clear view on what the DE are good at, or at least how I could play them. I think keeping my spearmen and exectuioners as a base with my crossbows and adding some Dark riders and Cold Ones. I'm not to big a fan of monsters, so I figured one should be able to survive without them right?

cheers
FFE

PS: What's up with all the banners? Is this something from the new edition or did I never realize banners where actually any good?

Like others have mentioned, the Hydra is just gross. For it's points cost, it is an absolute bargain. In comparison, the Monsters available to Beastmen are 75 or so points more expensive, and the Beastmen Monsters are neither as killy nor as resilient.

Dark Elf All-star units:

Warriors
Crossbow Warriors
Hydras
Blackguard
Shades
Chariots
Harpies
Sorceresses
Cauldron of Blood BSB

All the above units are undercosted, or just exceptional at their role. Dark Elves have a very high powered book, there is no getting around that, and their other units are simply average. The only unit I'd call bad is Dark Riders, since all fast cavalry is pretty bad in 8E. Especially in 8E, where killing the front rank isn't as important, I drop the Dreadlords for more troops.

I would recommend against selling your infantry as well. Besides performing better than cavalry in most cases, you admit to liking there look. You'll always regret a sale of a unit you might use, and in 8E those are two nice units.

I think dark riders have a place in the metagame. They are ZOMGHAX as far as shooting goes relative to anything except empire pistoliers, and they can run around all day and do it. My ideal dark elf list would center on using dark riders to keep the enemy's scariest combat blocks failing charges all game long, while I bombed them with my out of control magic phase and buried them in blizzards of crossbow bolts.

Dark riders have given me many headaches as a beastmen player. Their volleys of rapid fire harass my flanks and tear up lightly armored Minotaurs. Use sparingly, they're excellent.

ABSOOOOOLUTELY NOOOOOTHING - SAY IT AGAIN.

Nah they seem pretty cool - have you looked at Corsairs? Nothing but style.

Dark Elves are only good for shooting, magic and combat, nothing else.

Torrents of repeater bolts from foot and cavalry units alike ripped me apart last game and that light cavalry with crossbows easily killed three of four warmachines after the missiles had punched a sizeable hole into my line.

Having said that, some DE units are not good for standing below a direct mortar hit.

@Squash: Haha someone got the reference I was listening to the song at the time :p

Suddenly Dark Elves seem to be a lot better than I thought xD I like the idea of the Crossbow Dark Riders, do y'all think they need shields aswell? Could always help to have the possibility to let them charge something and survive. Corsairs seem to be like Spearmen, just better... and with more style... but I'm not to eager on getting more infantry... I have 2x 15 Spearmen, 1x 15 Executioners and 1x 24 (or more?) Crossbowguys. This should be a solid base if I add some more to my cavalry (already got some Cold ones and chariot)... + ofc the new codex could be helpfull^^

I guess most of the units which seem to be really awesome (like the Hydra, chauldron of blood or the black guard) don't appeal to me that much to get them in my army, but I got to agree that units like the Hydra are really good for their price

If you do run Dark Riders, do not give them shields as it takes away their Light Cavalry rules such as Vanguard and free reform. Corsairs are fairly similar to Spearmen if you only run them as AHW and no Frenzy, the only difference at that point is not relying on a third rank to get your extra attacks and the Corsairs get an additional point of armor against shooting.

The real difference in Corsairs comes when you pick up the Frenzy banner for another attack. Both AHW and the Handbows have their uses in 8th edition. In 7th the handbows weren't as good, but now that we can fire from the 2nd row their utility has grown tremendously. I'm currently experimenting with a 2x10 line with Frenzy and Handbows walking up right in front of something to shoot 40 bolts, and then a Stand-and-Shoot reaction for another 40 shots and then they get a fair number of attacks back thanks to Frenzy. Just be sure to keep the BSB/General nearby so you don't fail your frenzy check and accidentally charge into someone instead of just getting close and shooting.

I'm also planning on getting a Dark Elf Army in the future so this thread has been a big help. I've already got a deal with a guy who doesnt want his anymore and I'll be getting:

*Lvl. 4 Sorceress

*20x Crossbows w/shields

*Caulldron of Blood

*25x Executioners

This would be a good start to the list I am planning, and even though everyone says Black Guard are cool only being able to take 20x max kinda sucks and I prefer the look and the fluff of the executioners anyways. however, I'm still tempted to take a unit of cold one knights but are they still worth it anymore in this edition when calvary as a whole are less effective? Also I plan to get some more DE warriors here in a bit since I've always like the fluff of spearmen, plus they have pretty good stats for what your paying for them including hatred, but as for my crossbows would 2x units of 10x w/shields be better or would 1x unit of 20x crossbows w/shields?

Black Guard were infamous in 7th edition for being amazing for their points and nearly immortal in combat when supported by ASF. In 8th, now that they get punched back, not so much. They're still decent, but they're also still T3 5+ and now get hit back even after they rip off the first two ranks of a block. Things like Witches can put out similar amounts of damage while being cheaper per model and so not as big of a detriment when they get hit back and you start losing bodies.

Spearmen are decent, but at 7 points per shielded Warrior and no parry save they're fairly situational. Sadly, it's because of the decent WS, high Initiative, and Hatred that they're relatively expensive for being T3 5+ spears. While they do get Hatred, they aren't really strong enough or have enough attacks to really make it worthwhile. That being said, I do like having my block of 25 in the army as a roadblock for monsters. With Steadfast they can at least stick around and pin something down for a bit while my heavy hitters get there. The downside to spearmen is that a 20 Shielded Crossbowmen isn't too much more expensive and can reach out and tough units up to 24" away in addition to getting a parry save once combat hits.

I really prefer Cold One Chariots over the Knights; the smaller footprint and easier maneuverability really helps and you can get two Chariots for just a bit more than 5 Knights with Full Command. To be fair, though, that more illustrates the fact that Knight Command is very expensive! If I were to run Knights it would be as naked 5-man throw-away units for 135.

I've seen some nasty CoK deathstars with killer chars really do the damage on enemies.

Fire_for_effect wrote:
I have 2x 15 Spearmen, 1x 15 Executioners and 1x 24 (or more?) Crossbowguys. This should be a solid base if I add some more to my cavalry (already got some Cold ones and chariot)... + ofc the new codex could be helpfull^^

Not trying to be a nitpick but they're called Army Books In Fantasy. I wasn't aware that DE will get a new book.

Theyre not planned to get a new book.
The OP means new as in newer than the last time he played, having had a long brake and all.