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I'm currently building up my first Ork army, expanding from the AoBR set, and am wondering which path to take as I assemble this mob of boyz.

Say you have the points for 60 boyz, would you group them into two units of 30 or three units of 20?

Now up it again for say 100 boyz.. four units of 25 or split it into two units of 30 and two units of 20 or another possibly combination?

Or would it just depend on the terrain and tactics? With lots of terrain and bottlenecks, units of twenty won't clog up as much space, etc. Would you do a frontline of sluggas running into CC with units of 30 and then have shoota units of 20 behind them as a cleanup crew?

If it matters any, you can assume their primary opponent will be the Space Marines from the AoBR set with some extra toys thrown in as the points increase from a pair of your default Tac units (w/ flamer and ML) and storm bolter Terminator squad for the 60 boyz range and, for the 100 or so range, potentially an Ironclad with heavy flamers and a vindicator and who knows what added into the mix. Each boyz unit will have a Nob w/ PK and BP most likely and I'll also have some Lootas, a complex Nob squad and Warboss plus the DeffKoptas and probably a KFF mek around somewhere for starters.

So with that backdrop, is there an optimum size for these ork boy units, or does it just depend?

My opinion:

I don't like boyz. I like grots and nobs as troops better.

With that out of the way:

If they are foot slogging take the full 30 per unit. It keeps them fearless against shooting longer. It also keeps their numbers high enough to be effective once they do get into close quarters. Give them shootas, so they have something to do as the trudge up the board.

If they are in a battle wagon, run them as 20. Give them choppas, so they inflict more damage in assault.

Generally you don't want to foot slog boyz unless you take at least 3 full units. It is to easy to a unit or two with just a couple of bolter volleys and flamer/ML shots. You know, the basic tac squads loadout. At a certain point (about 90) it because very hard for the average list at (at lower points) to be able to kill that volume of infantry. You want to strive for that sweet spot if you are hording up.

Boyz are best used as an area denial threat, since they tend to shoot up and assault anything that wanders too close. They aren't that great against templates and elite combat units, so it is important to bring harder units too. Find a balance between the two unit types (elite killy and tough stuff like nobs, and the horde stuff like boyz and grots) is one of the challenges of playing orks.

Zen2k wrote:Say you have the points for 60 boyz, would you group them into two units of 30 or three units of 20?

Foot boys should always be put in groups of 30 to maximize the number that will get into assuat and increase the time it takes till you lose fearless.

Thanks for the input, guys! Personally, I was thinking twenty may be too skimpy and thirty may be too much, but my original intent was to build units of thirty, so I think I'll stick with that.

on foot units of 30.

In a battlewagon units of 20.

trucks only carry 12 so I do not bother with them.

If you're dedicated to the idea of MSU slogging boyz, I would recommend units of 20 shoota boyz w/2x rokkits and a nob w/PK and BPole. 4 or 5 of these will make the board a quagmire for your opponent, let you split shooting targets, get cover from screening, and lessen the blow when one unit gets sucked into melee and ripped up by fearless. It does warrant saying that an army like this is slow to collect, slow to paint, and very slow to play on the table top in addition to the general opinion that it is not very good in the current tournament meta.

notabot187 wrote:I don't like boyz. I like grots and nobs as troops better.

Curious.. Why?

BuFFo wrote:

notabot187 wrote:I don't like boyz. I like grots and nobs as troops better.

Curious.. Why?

Nobs are good against nearly anything in CC. They also can survive small arms fire.

Grots are cheap, half the cost of a boy. For scoring units, they are very specialized... The herder gives them a rerollable LD7. They can be taken in large mobs for really cheap. They all have laspistol equivalents, but their is so many of them. 30 grotblasta shots, 15 hit, 5 wound, a marine or 2 die... So small units don't really want to be within 12" range of grots. If those marines were a combat squad, 3 marines left could be taken on by grots with a reasonable (for a grot) chance of victory. (grots probably kill 1-2, herders probably kill 1, mostly dead or completely dead squad, as the marines against grabba sticks get very few attacks to reduce the incoming numbers). Not exactly exciting, but they are more dangerous than people realize (my grots bagged a greater daemon with pistol fire... it was already wounded, but I haven't let my opponent live it down lol)

Grots are generally one of the crappiest units in the game (get what you pay for), so people often don't even bother shooting at them, or even assaulting them as there are better targets. This is good for a scoring unit. When they do start shooting at them, they can't survive all that much, but grots in cover get the saves of marines (go to ground). Often by the time peolpe realize they need to take out the grots, they often don't have a huge amount of power to do it with.

The biggest reason why I like the above is that the boy is a large commitment in terms of army building. In terms of value, the boy looks and probably is a good deal. But then you get into list building, and you realize you need a bunch of them. You have to have enough to survive enemy fire while going in (don't recommend trucks for this reason, can't take the numbers, and they explode 2/3 times they get destroyed, on a AV10 open top) If you walk them, you need at least 3 mobs of 30. On the board this makes for a deployment and movement nightmare. They have to somehow all fit, walk around at 6" movement much of the terrain (or make difficult terrain tests for half the game and do nothing) Against a mobile opponent, it is very susceptible to refused flank maneuvers. And when they get there, they aren't even that great in assault, you have to have 3 to 1 advantage against the basic tac squad to really do well. That tac squad has been shooting you the whole game (at least 3 turns if your opponent is competent), and probably hasn't been taking much return fire. A full 30 orks costs much more than a tac squad, even with the rhino upgrade.

The supposedly assault oriented boyz squad has trouble taking on a tactical squad on the board, how do you think they will fair against good assault units?

Hi

This is an amusing thread.

Hahaha... footslogging boyz aren't considered good in the tournament scene! Good One! - I'll give you problematic - moving alot of boyz is time consuming and in the hands of an unskilled player, very vulnerable to template weapons and the like.

Other funny stuff - 30 boyz are much more expensive than tac marines, even with a rhino. Lets see... 30 boyz, 3 big shootas and a nob with claw and pole is 235. Compared to 10 marines with heavy bolter (or other free heavy) and flamer, an a fist for the sarge, add a rhino - 230 points. 5 points is indeed "much more" expensive.

More seriously, most of the advice hasn't been pretty good - 30 boyz is the correct answer - but the analysis has been weak. For example - It should take roughly 3 boyz at 6 points to handle 16 points of marines in an assault.

Regarding shooting, if marines want to engage shoota boyz in a fire fight - sweet! If you do the math, the lethality of marines at more than 12" against orks is rather pathetic - 8 bolters only translates to a little under 3 wounds before cover saves, plus a small boost from a heavy weapon. 52 shoota dice and 9 big shootas from the orks translates to nearly 4 dead marines. The rate at which the potency of the boyz diminishes compared to the marines is very heavily in favour of the orks. Three turns of that exchange eliminates the marines with plenty of boyz still standing.

That being said, the grot advice is sound.

Cheers,
Nate

Footslogging Boyz actually have become much weaker as more and more missile launchers find their way to the tabletop. Don't underestimate the potency of a meta-shift.

Deathwing-Ravenwing can bring 18 ML shots in 2k points pretty easily. Space Wolves bring 15 in any size list and can do upwards of 25 in some specific variants.

Even 180 Boyz with Ghaz and a KFF footpounding across a table has trouble absorbing 20-40 wounds a turn from blast templates.

That said, Nobz aren't really "better" as ID can wipe them out just as quickly, and it really speaks the most to problems with foot Orks in general.

To the OP, I would say that footslogging squads of Slugga Boyz probably should be at max, or near max (25+) for reasons already given. Shoota squads can be a little different, as you might want flexibility in picking targets. I've often played with 20-strong Shoota squads and they've served me well. Really though, you can't afford to go below 20 for any Ork Boy squad. Shootas can give you a little more flexibility simply because you shouldn't lose as many at higher I in the assault, but anything below 20 is flirting with leadership tests pretty quickly.

carlosthecraven wrote:Hi

This is an amusing thread.

Hahaha... footslogging boyz aren't considered good in the tournament scene! Good One! - I'll give you problematic - moving alot of boyz is time consuming and in the hands of an unskilled player, very vulnerable to template weapons and the like.

Other funny stuff - 30 boyz are much more expensive than tac marines, even with a rhino. Lets see... 30 boyz, 3 big shootas and a nob with claw and pole is 235. Compared to 10 marines with heavy bolter (or other free heavy) and flamer, an a fist for the sarge, add a rhino - 230 points. 5 points is indeed "much more" expensive.

More seriously, most of the advice hasn't been pretty good - 30 boyz is the correct answer - but the analysis has been weak. For example - It should take roughly 3 boyz at 6 points to handle 16 points of marines in an assault.

Regarding shooting, if marines want to engage shoota boyz in a fire fight - sweet! If you do the math, the lethality of marines at more than 12" against orks is rather pathetic - 8 bolters only translates to a little under 3 wounds before cover saves, plus a small boost from a heavy weapon. 52 shoota dice and 9 big shootas from the orks translates to nearly 4 dead marines. The rate at which the potency of the boyz diminishes compared to the marines is very heavily in favour of the orks. Three turns of that exchange eliminates the marines with plenty of boyz still standing.

That being said, the grot advice is sound.

Cheers,
Nate

Buying fists for tac squads isn't good or required, while ork boyz pretty much have to have the nob with fist (pole not absolutely needed). Tac squads cost 205 points, or 170. So, 30 points (5 boyz, or about 2 marines) or 65 points (almost 10 boyz, and 4 marines) is a big points difference.

Last I checked marines don't even get out of their rhinos against orks unless the rhino is destroyed. So that is 1 ML and 1 bolter + storm bolter firing at the orks. Good for about 3-7 kills a turn depending on cover and spread of orks for ML template. When the orks get close, the marines can drive up and flame, drive up and get out and RF and flame, or redeploy further away.

Also, at least one of the turns orks have shooting is probably spent running, either the first one, or the one where they assault with the whaaaagh. There is also the factor that the back of the ork squad is often not even close enough to fire the first turn (Or the edges of it if firing diagonally).

Hi

When has cracking a rhino ever been a challenge, even for orks?

How does one missile launcher + 1 bolter + 1 storm bolter = 3-7 kills? The bolter (assuming its at long range or else you are moving the rhino and not firing the missile launcher) and storm bolter = 1 wound on average (3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound). If the ork player is perfectly spread a missile will hit one ork on a "hit", and at the very most 4 on a perfect scatter (2" on just the right angle might do it), which is 0.5 wounds on a hit and two on a perfect scatter. So I guess that 7 wounds is possible if everything goes right, but 2 is the more likely answer.

If the ork player isn't disciplined, or is bunched because its first turn & spearhead, then you might pick up a few more.

I guess our biggest difference is that I am assuming a high level of competence on the part of the ork player (yet not factoring in the force field or regular cover) whereas you assume the ork player is a moron.

Cheers,
Nate

carlosthecraven wrote:If the ork player is perfectly spread a missile will hit one ork on a "hit", and at the very most 4 on a perfect scatter (2" on just the right angle might do it), which is 0.5 wounds on a hit and two on a perfect scatter. So I guess that 7 wounds is possible if everything goes right, but 2 is the more likely answer.

I guess our biggest difference is that I am assuming a high level of competence on the part of the ork player (yet not factoring in the force field or regular cover) whereas you assume the ork player is a moron.

Aside from my finding your opinion of your own competency to be a bit overblown relative to the merit of your comments, the Ork player is *never* perfectly spread and no matter what his competence, unless your table is literally barren of terrain, there will be far more than two boyz hit on average.

And this completely excludes things like tank shocking a mob to force them to pack in closer or lining up a throwaway screen unit that they have to assault--and pile in on--in order to get past.

As point values go up, the Ork player is going to be forced to put models into situations where a direct hit with a small blast will net 4+. In my personal experience, playing games, 6 is actually about the average, and this still allows for a lot of space between models. This is simply a function of players not being able to move 120-180 models in a timely manner on a terrain-studded table while trying to maximize number of Boyz that can get into an assault or shoota range.

TLDR: If you're running a significant number of Boyz, especially if there's a KFF or two in the army and you're trying to maintain coverage, maintaining maximum spread to avoid small blasts is going to be impossible if there's a suitable amount of terrain on the table and you're trying to get across it in a timely manner while maintaining some sort of offensive bite.

I'll add my 2 cents into the discussion. Basically, Sourclams and Notabot are spot on.

Sure, 3 mobs of 30 Boyz running across the table looks scary, but it's actually far less of a threat when you buckle down and start using TACTICS to deal with it (since this is the Tactics forum, let's dare to use some).

Boyz do not hold up well against shooting, at all. You have to make huge trade-offs, when playing a Green Tide list, as to whether you will stick to cover and spread out to avoid templates, or get to the enemy fast. You cannot do both. Sure, in a table with 2 pieces of area terrain, one in each deployment zone, this isn't true, but assuming a normal table with 25% coverage, and it's a nightmare to get that many boyz moving safely. If you stick to cover, it will slow you down, causing you to take 4, sometimes even 5 turns to get across the table. Then, once you get into assault, you'll have a wonderful time fitting all your models into range to swing.

Assuming you get the charge off at all.

Any competent player is going to do everything in his power to charge your Orks. Boyz charging a Tactical Squad wipe it out. A tactical squad charging a mob takes 2-3 assault phases, then wipes it out. He forces you to take 3-7 no retreat saves per phase, dropping you below Fearless, then sweeping you.

Add in transports, and the problem gets worse.

Orks have some of the worst, if not the worst, ranged anti-tank in the game. I can, literally, count on 1 hang the number of different tools available (Deffkoptas, Buggies, Lootas, Kannons, and Kan Rokkits). Of these, you'll generally be able to fit 2, maybe 3 of them in your list due to the restrictions placed on you by Force Org/army composition/logistics.

That means that you have to rely on charging transports to pop them, and a smart player will simply move more than 6" to force you into hitting on 6's. Good luck getting a single Klaw hit.

Bottom line, Ork Boyz do not to the footslogging route well. Mechanized Orks is simply a superior build.

If its a major tournament, and I know my opponent is packing 18 templates, you can be damn sure all my boyz are spread out properly. Most vets will do the same.

Coupled with scatter, needing 4+ to wound and either a 4 or 5+ cover save, how anyone is losing 40 boyz a turn to 15-18 missle launchers is beyond me.

Taoofss wrote:If its a major tournament, and I know my opponent is packing 18 templates, you can be damn sure all my boyz are spread out properly. Most vets will do the same.

Then you lose unless Boyz are less than 1/3 of your army list, and that's the long and short of it. If you are actively minimizing the number of models hittable by blasts, then you are just not moving up the table quickly enough to end the game decisively.

It's a little different on empty terrain tables or at lower point level games, but once you tip up into 2k with 25% terrain coverage you simply can't keep un-bunched while maintaining mobility.

sourclams wrote:

Taoofss wrote:If its a major tournament, and I know my opponent is packing 18 templates, you can be damn sure all my boyz are spread out properly. Most vets will do the same.

Then you lose unless Boyz are less than 1/3 of your army list, and that's the long and short of it. If you are actively minimizing the number of models hittable by blasts, then you are just not moving up the table quickly enough to end the game decisively.

It's a little different on empty terrain tables or at lower point level games, but once you tip up into 2k with 25% terrain coverage you simply can't keep un-bunched while maintaining mobility.

I play a Kan wall army when I play horde. I use 2x KFFs. I do not actively look for cover. Either my Kans provides or the KFFs do. I actively minimize the amount of models being hit while maintaining cover. I do not need to seek it out because it goes where my Meks/Kans go. The notion that orks either have to look for cover, OR move up the field in a timely manner is entirely wrong.

The purpose of boyz:

1. Deliver their nob into CC.
2. Avoid morale checks as long as possible.
3. Deliver pot shots at the enemy before HTH.
4. Any survivors get their attacks.

Take it in that order. As many nobz as you can. Remain fearless as long as you can.

Personal opinion is 12 orks is the bare minimum but they fail rather quickly at #2 so you are counting on Ld 7 real quick. That means 12 boyz is really for trukks only. But seeing I want as many Nobz available, I don't want to get trapped into 30-boy bubbles (one being the nob) for 180 to protect a nob valued around 40+ points. I would say keep your mobs around 20 - you are using BR boys so slugga choppa. That means you will be running almost every turn so 20 puts you at about one enemy fire phase of survival. That will put 20-boy mobs of about 160 each so still feasible for 800 points to present 5 nobz in 5 troop choices. Nobz as troops are great but T4 wounds are good against any primarily direct fire army also 20-boy mobz aren't instantly hamstrung by blobbing through terrain and can move around it. Surviving 1 fire phase should mean 12" on board, 6" move, average 3" run on turn one. 6" move, 3" waagh and 6" assault on turn two. You can hit anything within 36" of your board edge. Add about 5 boyz if you think you need to plan on turn 3 assaults so then we are talking 950 points to reach 45" across the board. That still leaves a lot of points for wagons, trukks, cans and/or dreadnoughts as well as a spot for a nob squad.

However I agree with shealyr above: Get some wagons and trukks and go with 12 and 20-boy squads that can potentially reach out and touch the opponent on the first turn. (13" move, 2" disembark, 6" charge) -- That is 33" range T1 for mech orks vs 24" foot mob T1. Vs 49" mech range on T2 or 36" range for foot boyz.

Taoofss wrote:
I play a Kan wall army when I play horde. I use 2x KFFs. I do not actively look for cover. Either my Kans provides or the KFFs do. I actively minimize the amount of models being hit while maintaining cover. I do not need to seek it out because it goes where my Meks/Kans go. The notion that orks either have to look for cover, OR move up the field in a timely manner is entirely wrong.

I challenge you to show a pic time series of your Kanz and your Boyz moving up the table without bunching. The simple variation in run rolls is going to make that very, very difficult. If you're only playing at 1500- points, then okay, whatever, you can get your 90 Boyz and 9 Kans up the table. At 2k+ on 25% terrain, it's not going to happen without bunching around your Kans or terrain corners. Either that or your Boyz have a conga line 12+ inches deep, which presents problems of its own.

I will admit I don't play games at 2k plus, but will also tell you that at 1850, getting 9x kans and 90-120 boyz up the table is fairly easy.

Taoofss wrote:I will admit I don't play games at 2k plus, but will also tell you that at 1850, getting 9x kans and 90-120 boyz up the table is fairly easy.

You may get up the table fairly easy, but it won't be to fast with all of those difficult terrain tests.

Unless you are playing a fairly open table, it's hard not to get bunched up with 90+ boys following behind 9 kans...

Played at a hard boyz event, one of the players brought all 180 boyz you can bring in a FOC. He had to reserve 2 units since even base to base he couldn't fit them all in during a table quarters mission.

During table quarters, 1/3 of your deployments, orks will get bunched up going diagonally across the board, or you will have to stack squads behind each other and slowly spread out (to where? your opponent is in his corner and unlikely to move out much until you are weakened.

DoW is really nasty for orks. If they go first, they get the illusion of forcing the enemy back deep into their half of the board (the enemy wants to be there in the first place...). In reality it means that you bring your entire remaining army in spread out, while he sees how you deploy and can just castle up in the best place after he comes in, probably quickly dealing with the 2 units you can deploy at the beginning of the game. Most of the rest of the army is 6+ d6 inches frorm your board edge, and is unlikely to see combat for quite some time, even with running. They will have to angle and either come bunched up, or one unit at a time.

In 2 out of 3 deployments, spreading out is bad. Orks need the mass of multiple large units seeing combat at the same time. The problem is it is too easy for people to create local superiority. I've used refused flanks and wedges to roll ork battle lines, occasionally so dramatically I thought I was playing WHFB and not 40k.

With more elite or balanced ork armies, there is room for the units to maneuver, they have speed to react to challenges, and can overcome being out deployed. Horde orks can be beaten in deployment, and can be crushed if the enemy can project mobile power quickly.

Yes, if you are playing in an ard boy tournament, then taking a horde list with 150+ models will create problems in deployment and mobility.

However, 90 percent of RTTs and 95 percent of GTs out there are played under 1850 value. (60 percent of all internet statistics are made up)

A good kan list will have 3 mobz of 30, 3x3 kans and 2x big mekks as its base. It has plenty of points left over for transport popping, flank denial, ranged support. 3x3 rokkit buggies+3 squads of lootas or something along those lines.

Taoofss wrote:Yes, if you are playing in an ard boy tournament, then taking a horde list with 150+ models will create problems in deployment and mobility.

However, 90 percent of RTTs and 95 percent of GTs out there are played under 1850 value. (60 percent of all internet statistics are made up)

A good kan list will have 3 mobz of 30, 3x3 kans and 2x big mekks as its base. It has plenty of points left over for transport popping, flank denial, ranged support. 3x3 rokkit buggies+3 squads of lootas or something along those lines.

The core of that kan list is about 1300 points (depending on war gear). Which doesn't leave a huge amount of room for much else at 1500. If you add rokkit buggies (105 per 3) you end up at around 1600+. So about 150 points to get to 1750, which is 10 lootas.

But a kan wall isn't really a horde. It contains above 100 models, which is a fair amount to be sure, but only out numbers the SM player by about 2 to one. My SM tend to be model light, and I still end up with 40-55 models. The kan wall can do a good job of protecting through cover saves, but what happens when those AV 11 models meet up with the massed ML and lascannons so common in SM lists these days? What happens instead of firing at each kan squad, they instead wipe out a squad 1 at a time (thus leaving the mob behind it with less cover, and assaultable)?

With 18 MLs, you are looking at 12 hits. 1/3 of them will neither pen nor glance. On average 3 will glace and 6 will pen. With KFFs, you are looking at 3 pen and 1.5 glace. So on an entire turn of shooting with 18 ML shots, you are looking at 1.75 dead kans per turn. Even if they get a lucky turn of shooting and wipe out an entire Kan squad, I still have your KFF granting 5+ saves to my boyz.

Kans+KFF=crazy survivable