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Is there a reason why a Demon Prince in a Chaos Marine army can have, say, Warptime or Lash of Submission, and yet one from a Deamon army can't?? Are they the same as somethng in the Deamon codex, just named differently? If it fluff, or just another one of those things??

Just curious...

Just GW inconsistency.

Same reason that CSM get generic lesser and greater demons, rather than interesting ones with cool abilities and options..

It's most likely GW being inconsistent. Perhaps it's something to do with them being HS in C: Daemons and HQ in C: CSM?

Lash = pavane

I would say it is most likely a balance issue, as giving Daemons 5 lash's would be a bit much. Fundamentally, I feel like they are supposed to represent different things. Demon Princes in the Chaos Space Marines codex lead warbands of Chaos Space Marines; hence, HQ slot. Demon Princes in a Chaos Demons army are there to fight as champions of the Chaos Gods and support the greater demons; they have a similar stature, but are not in command (as a Greater Demon or Herald "outranks" them in a pure demon hierarchy). Hence the Heavy Support slot. Not exactly sure why that causes them to lose their psychic power options, and also to choose different upgrades, but that's an issue when you have "Identical" entries in two separate codices (see IST's versus IG ST's or DA Tactical Squad vs SM Tactical Squad).

Magister187 wrote:I would say it is most likely a balance issue, as giving Daemons 5 lash's would be a bit much. Fundamentally, I feel like they are supposed to represent different things. Demon Princes in the Chaos Space Marines codex lead warbands of Chaos Space Marines; hence, HQ slot. Demon Princes in a Chaos Demons army are there to fight as champions of the Chaos Gods and support the greater demons; they have a similar stature, but are not in command (as a Greater Demon or Herald "outranks" them in a pure demon hierarchy). Hence the Heavy Support slot. Not exactly sure why that causes them to lose their psychic power options, and also to choose different upgrades, but that's an issue when you have "Identical" entries in two separate codices (see IST's versus IG ST's or DA Tactical Squad vs SM Tactical Squad).

This too is a fair point.

Magister187 wrote:I would say it is most likely a balance issue, as giving Daemons 5 lash's would be a bit much. Fundamentally, I feel like they are supposed to represent different things. Demon Princes in the Chaos Space Marines codex lead warbands of Chaos Space Marines; hence, HQ slot. Demon Princes in a Chaos Demons army are there to fight as champions of the Chaos Gods and support the greater demons; they have a similar stature, but are not in command (as a Greater Demon or Herald "outranks" them in a pure demon hierarchy). Hence the Heavy Support slot. Not exactly sure why that causes them to lose their psychic power options, and also to choose different upgrades, but that's an issue when you have "Identical" entries in two separate codices (see IST's versus IG ST's or DA Tactical Squad vs SM Tactical Squad).

If I understand it correctly the CSM daemons are former humans, the C: D daemon princes would be elevated daemons or elevated beings of other races.

The CSM psychic power options would be hideosly broken in a daemon army. And the daemon codex has no psychic options, its all just shooting attacks that have psychic fluff, I think that was a balance decision but I didn't write the book.

I wish they were more similar, if only you could take the best of both and have five of them in an army .

At least they have the same base stats [though the armor save is optional in a Daemons army]. In an army that otherwise has average to low-ish BS, they make a lot of sense as heavy support.

Other than that, although they are represent the same thing by the same name, for game purposes they are totally different units in separate armies.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:If I understand it correctly the CSM daemons are former humans, the C: D daemon princes would be elevated daemons or elevated beings of other races.

Not what really what's implied in the books to be honest, the Daemons codex even shows the C:SM DPs leading armies in their painting section, it's just a game balance thing I'd say.

Eh. Without reading too much into the rules, I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that the Daemons in CSM would be mutated marines, as opposed to pure creatures of the warp, so have different powers/outlook on reality affecting their judgement.

Or something.

Furies are Daemons made from the souls of mortals that never chose a god to dedicate themselves to, hence end up floating forever without a home or master. Lesser and Greater Daemons, however, just represent the myriad of different entities that inhabit the warp. However none of them are born of mortals. Mortals being gifted by chaos only has two routes: Either they are strong enough to bear the gifts and conquer chaos, becoming Daemon Princes, or are driven insane by them, turning into Chaos Spawns.

As for the DP having differnet powers, many of the C:Chaos Daemon powers are basicaly re-named versions of the CSM ones. Whatever extra options the Daemon Prince have, it's usually taken out of their profile (such as Daemonic Strength) or because it's a balance issue (every other model in the army is really not that customizable).

Van Braun wrote:Eh. Without reading too much into the rules, I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that the Daemons in CSM would be mutated marines, as opposed to pure creatures of the warp, so have different powers/outlook on reality affecting their judgement.

Or something.

No, Chaos Marines mutating would be Possessed Chaos Space Marines. You know, the unit option in Elites. The daemons are just that, daemons. GW just didn't flesh them out, for whatever reason, in the CSM book.