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This time for something different. Are Razorwing Flocks Swarms?


My gut tells me that they are. The description of them definitely is. The rules for them definitely is not. I guess it would depend on the official model for them. Does anyone else have a thought on the matter?







On the other subject of Fearless. My feeling is that (since the beasts join the Beastmasters) I believe they would gain the Fearless rule.

Codex only specifies that they are beasts. They have no swarm rule thus I would say they are not swarms.

Definitely not a swarm. Show the guy your codex and ask him where he sees "swarm" in the entry for razorwing flocks.

The fearless question is still up in the air, as nothing in the brb or faq explicitly describes the scenario.

megatrons2nd wrote:This time for something different. Are Razorwing Flocks Swarms?


My gut tells me that they are. The description of them definitely is. The rules for them definitely is not. I guess it would depend on the official model for them. Does anyone else have a thought on the matter?







On the other subject of Fearless. My feeling is that (since the beasts join the Beastmasters) I believe they would gain the Fearless rule.

The Razorwing Flock is definitely not a swarm, as it is not stated in their unit entry. Where are you getting Beastmasters gain Fearless? Are you talking about the Power From Pain rule if they have 3 pain tokens?

Yes, that's exactly the question - the unit is mixed fearless and not fearless, with no rules on how to handle this situation.

The FAQ says that in mixed units, the benefits for Power from Pain only apply to models with the rule. Fearless says that Fearless characters lose it as long as they are with a non-fearless unit. I realize that is for ICs* but that is the only rule you can go by, so Beastmasters with the right number of pain tokens are only Fearless if the unit has only Beastmasters in it.

*Perhaps not, the exact wording of the rule is characters, IC is in the previous sentence.

Homer

Beastmasters are neither upgrade characters or ICs, so the rule cannot apply.

Agree with Nos. The rule for ICs losing Fearless when attached to a non-Fearless unit might be indicative, but there's no way to know for sure. The Beastmasters aren't ICs, and don't attach to the unit. Hopefully GW will FAQ it.

However, the beasts are specifically mentioned as joining the Beastmaster unit, not that they are part of it.

Which leads me to believe that it is the beasts who are joining a fearless unit, thus gaining fearless in the same manner as an independent character joining a fearless unit.

Also a Warlock(not fearless, nor Independent) attached to a Wraithguard Squad(fearless) is assumed to be fearless. So I apply the same thinking to each.




A "flock" is a "swarm" by a different name. The description of a Razorwing Flock is the same as for a swarm as well. I was just curious as to see if it was a missed rule.

megatrons2nd wrote:However, the beasts are specifically mentioned as joining the Beastmaster unit, not that they are part of it.

This is ambiguous at best. They may "join" the unit at the time of army creation, but not during the game. The Fearless USR only talks about ICs.

megatrons2nd wrote:Which leads me to believe that it is the beasts who are joining a fearless unit, thus gaining fearless in the same manner as an independent character joining a fearless unit.

But the unit isn't Fearless when they join it.

megatrons2nd wrote:Also a Warlock(not fearless, nor Independent) attached to a Wraithguard Squad(fearless) is assumed to be fearless. So I apply the same thinking to each.

The WG have different rules. Their entry specifically says Fearless is joined by any character joining them; not just any Independent Character.

megatrons2nd wrote:A "flock" is a "swarm" by a different name. The description of a Razorwing Flock is the same as for a swarm as well. I was just curious as to see if it was a missed rule.

A "Swarm" is a defined special rule in 40k. A "flock" is not listed in the rulebook as a game-functional synonym.

On fearless and non, I think this is the most important part is the Ld test entry pg "LEADERSHIP TESTS - Tests made against the Leadership characteristic (like Morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model’s Leadership, the test is passed. If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Ld value." Pg 8

But I do admit that using Fearless as the "highest" Ld value isn't exactly supported

megatrons2nd wrote:
A "flock" is a "swarm" by a different name. The description of a Razorwing Flock is the same as for a swarm as well. I was just curious as to see if it was a missed rule.

It's already been addressed, but remember that "Swarms" have the Stealth USR, and according to the FAQ, if one model in a unit has Stealth, they all do.

These guys are cheap enough as it is, do they really need Stealth too?