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First I want to say that I've played in two Ard Boyz with my codex marines and placed 4th and 5th from around 30, so I have some experience. However, those placements come in the first round, against terrible lists run by casual players. So all in all, it was fun, but would leave one woefully unprepared for round 2.

Also, I know Blood Angels and Space Wolves are better. I don't care. Unless they're considered a potential matchup, I want nothing to do with them in this thread.

That said, I'd like a discussion on what marines can do well in a 2500 point game.

I. Meta is normally mech, and melta heavy
II. Spamming leads to a rock-paper-scissors type matchup that codex SMs can't compete with.

My mech list is spectacular at 1850 (maybe a little strong, but I'm very happy with it ); the problem is that I use up FOC. There's no extra room. That means a complete departure from what wins at those points levels to compete, and in my experience the results are less than stellar. For example, I stay away from LRs because they are too vulnerable to striking/flanking melta, but at higher point levels I need something, so they normally show up in my lists. My raiders ALWAYS get toasted by turn 3, without soaking the fire I'd like them to or getting my troops into position.

Because I don't have any bikes ($$$), I need to find another build that can compete at those point levels. Mech doesn't work because too many others do it better and cheaper. Also, the meta lends itself to toasting weaker (read less targets) with all the AV hate floating around. I want to bring something that will be fun to play, but still have a reasonable chance of success; by that I mean I'd like to make it to the second round.

Thoughts?

Spamming works and doesn't have to lead to a Rock, Paper, Scissors list.


I run a Mech Gunline list that has done pretty well and iwill be taking it to 'Ard Boyz this year.


the General gist of the list is

MOTF with servo-harness and some servitors

1 Tac squad with Combi-melta, Melta gun combo, 2 with Combi-flamer, Flamer combo. Heavy weapon is a Missile launcher and they are all in Rhinos. normally the Squad splits for the heavy weapon, but i don't in KP games.

Tactical Terminator Squad with 2 Clyclone missile launchers and a Landraider DT.

2 IClad dreds with 2 HFs.

4 Landspeeder Typhoons.

3 man bike squad with Melta gun and a MM attack bike.

2 Rifleman dreds

1 TL-las/missile dred.


the list is fairly mobile, but it focuses on Firepower. it has 16 missiles, 3 TL-lascannons, 4 TL-auto-cannons, 4 Melta weapons, 5 HBs, and 8 Flamer weapons.

the MOTF unlocks the HS dreadnoughts and can make batlefield repairs(more useful that many will admit)

misterfiveseven wrote:Also, I know Blood Angels and Space Wolves are better. I don't care. Unless they're considered a potential matchup, I want nothing to do with them in this thread.

If they are better, its by only a few percentage points. C:SM can perform just fine.

misterfiveseven wrote:That said, I'd like a discussion on what marines can do well in a 2500 point game.

They can deliver land raiders full of deathstars. They can have great back fire support to assist those deathstars.

misterfiveseven wrote:The problem is that I use up FOC. There's no extra room.

You need to trade out cheaper units for more expensive units. 5 TH/SS termies + Librarian + LRR can chew up 600+ points, and deliver a nice punch when they hit.

Now, what is chewing up your LRs? Are the melta guns dropped from the sky? Ive lost my LRs also, but not before they deliver their payload of terminators and get 1 or 2 flame strikes off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
2 Rifleman dreds

1 TL-las/missile dred.

Some of the best units in the C:SM codex are here. Rifleman dreads are awesome at taking down AV 10 targets. As one dread shoots 4 shots, they can bring down a squad of 2 speeders easily in 1 round of shooting.

The other advantage of the dreads is that they have a small profile compared to other vehicles. Its easy to give them obscurement, and blast templates easily scatter off them to hit with half strength -- a benifit preadators are lacking.

Finally, they have their weapons mounted high on the chassis -- about 1.5 inches higher than the sponsons on a AC/LC pread, allowing them to fire over walls easily.

List I faced (and gave me a hard fight) in the semis two years ago was roughly:

Shrike, deep striking with
10 assault terminators (mostly TH/SS)
Librarian (null zone, I forget what else), riding with...
5 assault terminators
in LR (forget which variant) with MM, possibly ExArmor
10 Tacs w/plasma cannon & razorback
10 tacs w/missile & Rhino
5 Tacs w/combi & Razorback
3 Typhoons with HB
3 Typhoons with HB
3 Typhoons with MM

...I think that was about it.

Tactical Terminator Squad with 2 Clyclone missile launchers and a Landraider DT.

This is very I started sticking. Tactical Terminators are actually VERY effective, contrary to popular belief. They can dish out a heinous amount of firepower and still mix it up in cc. Also can soak it too; I think they're just as good as TH/SS, just different.

I also want to stay away from Shrike + Termies of doom just because it's what people expect to see. Every time my full 10-man tact termie squads have really thrown people off (poor nidzilla guy two years ago ).

the MOTF unlocks the HS dreadnoughts and can make batlefield repairs(more useful that many will admit)

One of the builds I was looking at was a 5 dread build with a MotF. My only problem is that dakka preds are the best tank in the game. period. it hurts me to use HS choices for anything other than them; just feels like wasted points (I realize they can't tarpit, lower profile, etc).

You need to trade out cheaper units for more expensive units. 5 TH/SS termies + Librarian + LRR can chew up 600+ points, and deliver a nice punch when they hit.

Now, what is chewing up your LRs? Are the melta guns dropped from the sky? Ive lost my LRs also, but not before they deliver their payload of terminators and get 1 or 2 flame strikes off.

My problem with deathstars is that they rarely kill their points worth. They let you dictate movement early and a little mid game, but their single application nature rubs me the wrong way.

Also, DSing stormies, termicides, tau, and mechdar have spelled doom for my LRs. Every opponent seems to bring just enough shenanigans and roll really well for DSing.

So I guess an FoC breakdown is in order:

Troops: Tac in rhinos/ razorbacks. maybe scouts (just not for me)

Elites: Either Tac Termies or Dreads.

Fast Attack: landspeeders. nuff said.

Heavy Support: Dreads or dakka preds.

Thinking this:

HQ:
libby, null and gate
Motf

Troops:
x3 tactical marines

Elites:
x2 full tac termie w/2 missile
Dread

Heavy support:
x3 Dread

Fast Attack:
x3 MM/HF Landspeeders

Comes to 2260 with no upgrades/transports. thoughts?

That list looks nasty Mannahnin.


Codex: SM has incredible flexability and varity in the builds that can be pulled out of it.


a Shrike build(like the above list) takes the Army wide Fleet to turn Assault terminators into a very fast moving threat even without a Landraider.

a MOTF build like mine takes advantage of the ability to field Dreds in the HS slot. this allows you to field 6 dreds or 3 HS dreds and fill your Elite slots with terminators or Sternguard.


Typhoons are awsome. they can move 12" and fire either 2 Krak missiles or 2 Frag missiles and their HBs so they are really hard to catch. the long range of these weapons reduces the amount of weapons that can kill them too. Sure, Speeders are fragile, but at the distances of 36+" your opponent doesn't have as many guns to kill them as he does in the 24" and below range.



at 2500 points, Space Marines have alot of Options. due to the, oft overlooked, synergy present in the codex, Space Marines can field a very strong force.

many space marine players try and have their units be able to do everything at once, an unfortunante mistake that GW actually encourages,

instead of diversifying your units, Specilize. a Tactical Squad Sergeant should always take a matching Combi-weapon to the squads. you should always take at least a Missile launcher.

Dreadnoughts need to have all of their weapons be focused to a specific task. no Lascannon and DCCW nonsense,

have each unit have a specified task to accomplish.


in my list i have the Tactical Squads with Melta guns riding around in Rhinos popping tanks, the Flamer squads are hunting infantry.

the Typhoons are picking on Tanks or Infantry depending on the target of opprotunity.

the Rifleman Dreadnoughts pop Transports, infantry if there arn't any AV12 or less vehicles.

Lascannons are taking on the heavy targets.

misterfiveseven wrote:
Thinking this:

HQ:
libby, null and gate
Motf

Troops:
x3 tactical marines

Elites:
x2 full tac termie w/2 missile
Dread

Heavy support:
x3 Dread

Fast Attack:
x3 MM/HF Landspeeders

Comes to 2260 with no upgrades/transports. thoughts?

Looks pretty good.

What kind of Dreads?

"Full Tac Termies" means 10 & 2 Cyclones per squad, right? How about putting a chainfist in for a chance to kill a Landraider in HtH? Be sure the Libby is the closest model forward against Chaos, to make it hard or impossible for him to Lash you without being in Hood range.

How about Razors for the Tac Marines? This gives you another move & fire heavy for cheap points. One key thing about a very move & fire army like this is that against a really nasty shooty army going first (missile spam wolves, Razorwolves/RazorBA, full shooty IG, some DE builds, etc.) you can just Reserve to deny them two turns of shooting, then fire everything (except the Tac squad heavy weapons) as your units move onto the table.

I would consider a squadron of three Attack Bikes for one of your HS slots. You can get three MMs for less than the price of two Speeders with MMs. They can still Turbo if you need them to redeploy fast, and can assault if you need to clear a weedy unit off an objective (Grots, Scouts).

I really like Typhoons for Speeders, as they can hang way back and bust Rhinos/Razors, or skirt 'round and get side armor shots on Preds and Battlewagons. They tend to live longer, too, as they don't have to go in close to do real damage. It's always nice to have a speeder or two left alive late-game to skim 24" and contest an objective. You could also consider going to squadrons of two at this points level instead of just single speeders.

What about something like

Libby = 100

Troops:
10xTacticals (MG+Combi-M+ML) = 185
Rhino = 35

10xTacticals (MG+Combi-M+ML) = 185
Rhino = 35

5xTacticals (Combi) = 100
Lasplas = 75

5xTacticals (Combi) = 100
Lasplas = 75

Elites
5xTH&SS = 200
LRC (MM) = 260

5xTH&SS = 200

Heavy:
Vindicator (Dozer) = 120

Vindicator (Dozer) = 120

LRC (MM) = 260

FA:
2xTyphoon = 180

2xTyphoon = 180

Typhoon = 90

Decent long range AT with 12 MLs and 2 lascannons. Somewhat lacking in meltas but should be ok.
Dual Vindis and raiders along with rhinos to block side shots makes for a nasty target priority...

misterfiveseven wrote:
My mech list is spectacular at 1850 (maybe a little strong, but I'm very happy with it ); the problem is that I use up FOC. There's no extra room. That means a complete departure from what wins at those points levels to compete, and in my experience the results are less than stellar. For example, I stay away from LRs because they are too vulnerable to striking/flanking melta, but at higher point levels I need something, so they normally show up in my lists. My raiders ALWAYS get toasted by turn 3, without soaking the fire I'd like them to or getting my troops into position.

I have a question, what is this too strong 1850 list?

Master Melta wrote:
I have a question, what is this too strong 1850 list?

lol i meant my affection for my list might be too strong.

Troops
(10) Tactical Squad, Combiflamer, Multimelta, Flamer, Rhino
(10) Tactical Squad, Multimelta, Flamer, Rhino
(10) Tactical Squad, Multimelta, Flamer, Rhino

HQ
Vulkan

Elites
Ironclad w/Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Drop Pod
Ironclad w/Heavy Flamer, Meltagun, Drop Pod
(6) Sternguard, x4 Combimelta, x2 Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

Heavy Support
x3 Dakka Pred

Fast Attack
x3 MM/HF Landspeeders

Total: 1850

Solid list, nothing special, but it has done very well for me.

What kind of Dreads?

Probably rifleman or TWLC/ML with a hint of ironclad.

"Full Tac Termies" means 10 & 2 Cyclones per squad, right? How about putting a chainfist in for a chance to kill a Landraider in HtH? Be sure the Libby is the closest model forward against Chaos, to make it hard or impossible for him to Lash you without being in Hood range.

1. Yes
2. I will definitely have a chainfist, prolly 2 in each squad (points permitting; better safe than sorry).
3. Lash is the only thing that scares me about running foot tactical termies. Man i wish i could get two libbys, one for each squad :(

How about Razors for the Tac Marines? This gives you another move & fire heavy for cheap points. One key thing about a very move & fire army like this is that against a really nasty shooty army going first (missile spam wolves, Razorwolves/RazorBA, full shooty IG, some DE builds, etc.) you can just Reserve to deny them two turns of shooting, then fire everything (except the Tac squad heavy weapons) as your units move onto the table.

I've never really been sold on razorbacks. I don't doubt they are effective, but I love the MM midfield bunker that 3 rhinos can throw up. Also, cheaper still. If i have some points left over, I'd probably get 1 razorback (prolly asscannon or LC/PG)

I would consider a squadron of three Attack Bikes for one of your HS slots. You can get three MMs for less than the price of two Speeders with MMs. They can still Turbo if you need them to redeploy fast, and can assault if you need to clear a weedy unit off an objective (Grots, Scouts).

I thought they were FA?

I really like Typhoons for Speeders, as they can hang way back and bust Rhinos/Razors, or skirt 'round and get side armor shots on Preds and Battlewagons. They tend to live longer, too, as they don't have to go in close to do real damage. It's always nice to have a speeder or two left alive late-game to skim 24" and contest an objective. You could also consider going to squadrons of two at this points level instead of just single speeders.

Your definitely right about the Typhoons, but I'm trying to save my wallet from the inevitable beating that the WYSIWYG ard boyz style causes. I would love to run 6 instead of 3 though... maybe I can find some points somewhere

Elites
5xTH&SS = 200
LRC (MM) = 260

5xTH&SS = 200

Heavy:
Vindicator (Dozer) = 120

Vindicator (Dozer) = 120

LRC (MM) = 260

I know it's blasphemy, but I honestly prefer tactical termies better... oh for the days of 4th edition

Also, ~200 points of stromtroopers can easily kill 500+ points of tanks. in ard boyz, it's GOING to happen, just a matter of time.

Finally, I don't think any HS slot can compete with a dakka pred. I sincerely doubt a vindi ever makes its points back (even though it is scary).
An armored spearhead is similar to what I do in 1850, also makes DSing to toast my preds very dangerous. The only thing keeping me from that is Tau and mechdar: too many effective ways to toast raiders (from experience).

misterfiveseven wrote:

What kind of Dreads?

Probably rifleman or TWLC/ML with a hint of ironclad.

How about Razors for the Tac Marines? This gives you another move & fire heavy for cheap points. One key thing about a very move & fire army like this is that against a really nasty shooty army going first (missile spam wolves, Razorwolves/RazorBA, full shooty IG, some DE builds, etc.) you can just Reserve to deny them two turns of shooting, then fire everything (except the Tac squad heavy weapons) as your units move onto the table.

I've never really been sold on razorbacks. I don't doubt they are effective, but I love the MM midfield bunker that 3 rhinos can throw up. Also, cheaper still. If i have some points left over, I'd probably get 1 razorback (prolly asscannon or LC/PG)

I would consider a squadron of three Attack Bikes for one of your HS slots. You can get three MMs for less than the price of two Speeders with MMs. They can still Turbo if you need them to redeploy fast, and can assault if you need to clear a weedy unit off an objective (Grots, Scouts).

I thought they were FA?

I like Ironclads a lot. AV13 is a bad matchup for a lot of units. Riflemen are quite nice too. LC/ML not quite as efficient but nice to have against AV12 & 13.

Razors are to taste. When you consider how few points it is to add a move & fire heavy weapon there as compared to taking a whole new unit elsewhere to get a heavy, the HW on a razor is darn cheap. I like Twin-Las for its reliability & for its range when you're Reserving against shooty alpha-strike. BA do better with las/plas; but I think C:SM often do better with TL Las. They're both good, though.

ABs are FA, but at 2500 you could take a squad of 3 as one FA slot, and turn your three speeders into two squadrons of two with the addition of only one more speeder. More guns out of your FA slots. With Typhoons the squadron approach works even better, because often your opponent is shooting at them with a single-shot long range heavy like a missile launcher or lascannon, and you can keep dumping off hits on the same speeder while leaving one operational to fire.

Interestingly enough, I am currently building an army a wee bit similar to the thoughts brought up here. I don't know if it's competitive or not and I et have to playtest it to make sure it's at least solid (still have 3 commissioned armies to paint. Sigh.) but here it is:


HQ:
Vulkan He’stan (190 pts)
Master of the Forge on bike w/ Conversion beamer (155 pts)

Troops:
5-man Scout Squad w/ Sgt. Telion, Missile Launcher (135 pts.)
10-man Tactical Squad w/ Flamer, Missile Launcher, combi-flamer, Sgt. w/ Power Fist, Razorback w/ storm bolter (255 pts)
10-man Tactical Squad w/ Meltagun, Multi-Melta, combi-melta, Rhino (220 pts)
10-man Tactical Squad w/ Meltagun, Multi-Melta, combi-melta, Rhino (220 pts)

Elites:
Ironclad Dreadnought w/ Seismic Hammer, Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod (170 pts)
Ironclad Dreadnought w/ Seismic Hammer, Meltagun, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod (170 pts)
Dreadnought w/ Multi-melta, CCW, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod (150 pts)

Heavy Support:
Dreadnought w/ two Twin-Linked Autocannons (125 pts)
Dreadnought w/ two Twin-Linked Autocannons (125 pts)
Predator w/ Autocannon, heavy bolter sponsons (85 pts)

Total: 2000 pts.

Vulkan rides with the combat-squadded Razorback squad, ML guys pound things with Telion, MotF, Dakka Pred and Mortis Dreadnoughts from behind.

Dakka Razorback is there because I have 10 points to spare. And it is funny.

In 2.5k, I'll bring MM/HF speeders for sure, upgrade one of the dreads to an Ironclad. Then... I dunno, HK missiles? Storm bolters on every tank? Another Tac squad, maybe?

I usually make a good showing with my Space Marines in the 2,000-2,500 point range.

I love Dreads but I would advise against going out there without a squad of Melta-heavy Sternguard in a Drop Pod though. You need those Pods to hit hard; 2 melta guns from an Ironclad isn't going to do the same job that a combat-squadded Sternguard unit is going to do with 4-6 combi-meltas.

Fair enough, so what would you suggest I should drop to make room for Sterns? Or maybe TH/SS termies are a viable option? The do pop tanks quite nicel 9only I would be DS-ing them, so locator beacons on pods, maybe?)

Here's the thing: I get that you have a theme for your list and wouldn't want to tell you to make a list that you aren't happy with. That said, dropping the Scouts and an Ironclad would get you a squad of 10 with 4 Combi-meltas in a drop pod. With Vulkan I would say you can get away with only taking four since you'll be Twin-linked and BS 4 but you could buy two more by taking the Storm Bolter off of the Razorback.

Nah, theme is one thing. But everything can be explained by fluff, if you're creative enough. Winning is another, and much more important, factor. because ou can't justify that with fluff. So yes, I'm very open to suggestions.

With that said, wouldn't turning the Razorback into a Rhino (since Vulkan now rides with the Stern Pod), dropping the PF and ML (for MM) garner me more combis for the Sterns? That wa almost everyone gets a combi, although it would be too much melta overkill perhaps since it's twin-linked. So, combi-flamers for versatility?

That's a way to go. I find that with all the mech armies out there you won't always get a lot of use out of combi-flamers and Sternguard can already ignore cover saves.

Okay then. I'll guess I'll just post m new list on the army list forums so that we won't stay off-topic. Thanks.

Continued in list discussion:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/344218.page#2403612

I think at this point level it is going to be primarily about fire power. Think of it this way, the lower the point level, the more % of your force is tied up in mandatory HQ and troop choices, leaving less room for toys. The higher points you go, with 2500 really being the top of a single FOC, the more toys someone can fit into a list. The more firepower you have in your toys, the less your opponents can hit back with theirs. 2500 allows for large swings in strength of forces due to firepower. I think overall a strategy based on pure raw firepower is the best at this high of point level, so you really just want to fill the FOC with as many cost-efficient options as you can.

HQ Master of the Forge 100
Elite Dakka Dread 2x TL auto 125
Elite Dakka Dread 2x TL auto 125
Elite Dakka Dread 2x TL auto 125
Troops Tactics x5 Combiflamer, las/plas razorback 175
Troops Tactics x5 Combiflamer, las/plas razorback 175
Troops Tactics x5 Combiflamer, las/plas razorback 175
Troops Tactics x5 Combiflamer, TL assault cannon razorback 175
Troops Tactics x5 Combiflamer, TL assault cannon razorback 175
Troops Tactics x5 Combiflamer, TL assault cannon razorback 175
Fast Typhoon 2x typhoon + hb 180
Fast Typhoon 2x typhoon + hb 180
Fast Typhoon 2x typhoon + hb 180
Heavy Predator Auto-las 120
Heavy Predator Auto-las 120
Heavy Predator Auto-las 120

2425

Leaves some points to play with. You can do stuff like add some HKs (which I normally wouldn't do, but increasing the alpha strike damage is paramount), give the MotF a conversion beamer and maybe bike, etc.

Tons of firepower there. The weakness is that the army is relatively static in terms of strategy: if you can't outshoot it you won't win.