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Hey guys,

Just a quick one, i read the new WD, and actually rather enjoyed it for a change, i loved the well written battle report for BA vs DE.

Anyway, i just wanted to know, as i play neither BA nor DE, why did Astorath suck so much?

At 230pts, i really dont understand why he would be so easily smashed up by an 165pt archon, and it has genuinelly piqued my interest as to what uses he has. What are viable tactics for using him? And how have you guys found him in game? Was this just another case of WD players playing a tie on purpose? (for those of you who havent read, it finished 8-8 somewhat predictably!)

How have you BA players found Astorath? Is he a mighty warrior or an over priced commander? Does he confer any great abilities that allow you to make game changing plays?

And as for DE, have any of you guys struggled with him?

I dont play either, but im very interested in this issue following me enjoying the article so much!

Hey mattyrm,

This is a topic I've been curious about as well, what with my Flesh Tearing aspirations. Some time back, Steve posted this, which I have seen echoed elsewhere (not sure if folks are just echoing him, however):

BloodThirSTAR wrote:The only way to reliably get Red Thirst for your units is to choose Astorath as an HQ. I see him being better served as the key to unlocking a pure Death Company army. The points spent on Astorath in general are better used for purchasing Sanguinary Priests.

from: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/324457.page#2057679

This seemingly reasonable perspective has made me shy away from writing any lists with Astorath but I'd like to hear if anyone has a different opinion.

You can read more of Steve's stuff on his blog: http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com/

Thanks mate ill check that out.

A close friend of mine uses Astorath in all his BA lists for his thirst thing. He's a complete monster in assault. I haven't been able to even score a wound on him (in a total of three games!)

Also, I didn't read the report, but did the archon use a shadow field? That would make sense

Well I think that has more to do with the fact that a tooled out DE Archon is a close combat beast . . .

So why is the tooled out Archon so many points cheaper?

Basically, any tooled up character can put down another tough character in one round of combat, it all depends on a very few dice rolls so chance is a big thing. In the case there, I believe Astorath is S6 (so he would instant kill the archon) and the archon might of had an ID power weapon. So whoever strikes first (I believe it would be the archon), as long as one attack gets through the invulnerable save it's game over.

Generally speaking it seems pretty risky to use characters as duellists unless you have higher initiative, or eternal warrior or something. As for Astorath in an army, it seems better to take sanguinary priests, as you have more control over which squads have the bonuses.

mattyrm wrote:So why is the tooled out Archon so many points cheaper?

Because he doesn't triple the chances of each unit in his entire army getting The Red Thirst. Astorath is decent in HTH, but certainly overpriced just as a HTH unit. The reason for his cost is because he provides an army-wide special benefit.

mattyrm wrote:So why is the tooled out Archon so many points cheaper?

Because archons are what you make them. They have a plethora of excellent options. The only thing they really suffer from is S3T3. Other than that, they have no serious flaws.

Astorath is priced the way he is mainly for his force multiplier effects- He is a beefier reclusiarch, after all. An archon does nothing outside of being a HtH savage, army wise, and if he fails that shadowfield save once, he's pretty much kibble after that.

Mannahnin wrote:

mattyrm wrote:So why is the tooled out Archon so many points cheaper?

Because he doesn't triple the chances of each unit in his entire army getting The Red Thirst. Astorath is decent in HTH, but certainly overpriced just as a HTH unit. The reason for his cost is because he provides an army-wide special benefit.

You beat me to it!

The army-wide buff is totally worth it. I really hate having to face an army of Space Marines that are fearless with Furious Charge!

I haven't read the article. Could you recap what happened exactly? Did astorath get assaulted by a lone archon and lose? That seems fairly unlikely. Any hits Astorath got on the archon would be ID and he would have to re-roll all his shadowfield saves.

Maybe the Archon had a Huskblade? Astorath doesn't have Eternal Warrior.

The archon is actually rather pricy for what he does; especially considering that the only way to make him durable is to take the Shadowfield, and that generaly as soon as he fails a single save on it he's dead.

I think Astorath is best chosen if you want to field a Death Company army. Not everyone is building their lists to crush face at tournaments. I think he is there most for the fluffies. As an HQ he is not bad but he actually I believe is best utilized when fielded with an Honor Guard (Chapter Banner for the +1 attack). None of the HQ are EW except for the Sanguinor so I don't think that is really a big issue. If you running primarily an assault army I think his army wide buff is worth the extra points over a generic Recluisarch/Chaplain, that is if you want to field him.

I must say Astorath is a named hero with a jump pack with a relic blade the re-froces invunerable saves. Oh yeah, he re rolls to hit as well. He is no lightweight.

The problem is the jump pack, he is hard to get in a transport, but with that axe he is a mean crazy dude!

I suppose the real question of Astorath is how to distribute the effects of his specials. Every time you advantage of his removal of the 0-1 Death Company rule, you are not taking advantage of his Red Thirst rule. If you take an army based around the fact that half of it will gain the Red thirst, you are not taking advantage of the possibility of a mega death company list of death.

So which is more worth it?

Well, the red thirst rule is nice, but 1) it is unreliable; although a 4+ is good, it is not dependable and 2) you can use priests instead, who don't only have a chance of supplying their rule. And give FNP.
However, Priests easy to pick off, as ICs, and units can be pulled out of their range through too many circumstances. And they don't give fearless - this is especially good as the downside of fearless is not as drastic for red thirst marines, as they don't expect to lose combat anyways. But as mentioned - FNP. That's the real kicker.

Death company list - hard to pull off, I suppose, as per the general lack of scoring units. If you take more killy stuff, you get less winny stuff. But, it does rock really hard. I haven't seen any credible examples of lists of this sort, however, so I cannot speak well on the subject.

And there you have it. Which is better?

For 165 pts, sounds like the Archon had a Huskblade, Combat Drugs, Shadowfield, etc. Or an Agonizer with Astorath rolling invulns really badly. An archon will hit on 3's, and wound on 5's, and go first. Sure, Astorath and his relic blade are a b**** for rolling single shadowfields, but he has to get the chance. Getting +1S or reroll failed to wound really jacks up an archon's power.

Maybe a list with Astorath and Lemartes with two small Death company units, Assault Marines, and VV would be viable. Throw a couple Sang Priests for Feel no Pain. A decent list at least.