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For a new space marine bike army, which would be the better bet? Dark angels Ravenwing or a Khan / white scars idea? I'll have to buy one of the two codecies but not both. I don't have access to either at a store so this has to be a decision made here on dakka. What's the best way to build a bike space marine army? I would want bikes as troops, the inclusion of some terminators, at most two tac squds for backup a couple tanks but mostly bikes attack bikes and speeders. Are there point breaks for bikes in either army? Better special characters on bikes? Something I'm not aware of?



Your help is appreciated!

Actually, Vulkan is way better than either just because of the synergy between his rules and the load out on bike squads.

If you don't want to field Vulkan, I find a generic captain to be a better buy than Khan, and Ravenwing isn't living up to it's potential if it's not used in conjunction with Deathwing (you pay a premium for scout and teleport homers, and while it's not essential to field Deathwing it is points wasted).

However, with the new faq giving DA access to all the new SM goodies (3++ stormshields) the Combiwing has gotten a LOT better, especially with the ability to take Cyclone launchers on Assault terminators.

But how does vulkan let me use bikes as troops? I'm missing something.

Also I have the potential to make 10 terminators (now with good storm shields) come in on teleport beacons from the bikes or scouts. So a ravenwing / deathwing could work. Is it very expensive? Too expensive?

I play pure ravenwing and love it. having your entire army scout is extremely powerful even if you don't have deathwing deepstriking

Funny sly marbo stuff Volkov.. can you please elaborate on your pure ravenwing build? I'm not familiar with the army, everything can make scout moves? What other specifics make ravenwing the idea bike sm army?

I too would likr to know as i am thinking about a bike army.

Ravenwing bikers are insanely expensive. The dark angel list only works as a death wing list IMO. You can add pieces of ravenwing into your deathwing army, but a biker-heavy army is done much better by C:SM. Just use a normal captain on a bike to get them as troops

Either way the cheapest way to get the bikes is the ravenwing battleforce (contains a speeder, 6 regular bikes, and an attack bike) you can make the regular varients but it also comes with 3 upgrade sprues to make ravenwing varients instead

Lordhat wrote:Actually, Vulkan is way better than either just because of the synergy between his rules and the load out on bike squads.

That depends on how you load out your bike squads. If you have 2 MG + MM, then yes, its a great investment. I don't use Vulcan b/c I use my 2nd HQ slot for the librarian.

Lordhat wrote:I find a generic captain to be a better buy than Khan, and Ravenwing isn't living up to it's potential

+1
Ravenwing are to expensive for what they provide. Khan is .... meh ....

From what it sounds like your looking for vanilla C:SM is the way to go. You can try Khan, but try without him as well.


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th3eviltwin wrote:I too would likr to know as i am thinking about a bike army.

This is a good starting primer on bikers.
http://www.simhammer.com/node/16

When I started playing bikes, I would spam bikes. It was fun to field 32 bikes in a 1750 game and turbo-boost around the board, but I soon found weaknesses with that playstyle. Its a fun army list, but not a overly effective one. Adding long range support makes it a much better list.

what is ravenwing and deathwing?

th3eviltwin wrote:what is ravenwing and deathwing?

Look up the Dark Angel codex. Everything is in that book.

How about neither special character and just a captain on a bike. That is what I found worked best for me - check my batreps in my sig. Many of the crimson fists games are a bike heavy list.

As an experiment I tried pointing out my list with the DA codex after they got their update and I ended up with more bikes in the regular SM codex.

They are really fun to play and have a pretty steep learning curve, but once you kind of figure them out they are an absolute blast and can really take on all comers.

Khan is actually quite good. Considering he can let you take 5 man bier squads as troops and let them all outflank, I would consider that very handy to make good use of.

Outflank is pointless on bikers. They can move into a better position by simply starting on the table. The captain is better in almost every case. Khan is only good if you want outflanking termies in a land raider/a hitty command squad

Illumini wrote:Outflank is pointless on bikers. They can move into a better position by simply starting on the table. The captain is better in almost every case. Khan is only good if you want outflanking termies in a land raider/a hitty command squad

The benefit from outflanking is very small when you can turbo boost 2 feet each turn.

yeah plus outflanking (in my experience) encourages the opponent to castle up which you absolutely want him not to do when playing bikes.

Somnicide wrote:yeah plus outflanking (in my experience) encourages the opponent to castle up which you absolutely want him not to do when playing bikes.

Agreed.

One of the advantages of a bike army -- in case anyone else reading this does not know -- is the ability to deliver a lot of points into a small area quickly.

Imagine the play being like swinging a hammer and striking your target, then moving quickly away to strike another target. Your hammer is tough and fast, and works best to knock off any loose ends on what your striking.

Finally -- love your icon Somnicide. Bert and PinHead are eerily similar.

Heheh thanks. Yeah the hammer analogy is a good one for bikes. Also, another benefit of a regular captain is that combat tactics is really good on bikes - people CAN'T shoot you before they charge because you will just likely fall back 3d6". Also, it is like a poor man's hit and run if you are in a combat that you can't win.

I guess think of ravenwing as more of a landspeeder/bike army than a pure bike army. I have 7 in my typical list including my master of the ravenwing. I find Its all about tactics and positioning. Ravenwing can hit the enemy so hard and so fast that you can have them wiped by turn 2. But, having said that I have also been wiped by turn 2.

Anyother fun trick ive seen is using scout bikers. Just a little 3 man unit. Sgt has a PF and Teleport beacon. They infiltrate in get the scout move then the bike move and assualt move, BAM! Sgt is in assualt with your enemies vehicle turn 1 with a PF to rear armor. And if he somehow survived to round 2... here come a nice big batch of SS TH termies right on his location

tldr wrote:But how does vulkan let me use bikes as troops? I'm missing something.

By taking a captain on a bike as well, of course. This may not be an option for you, but that's my suggestion for best SM character for a bike list.

labmouse42 wrote:

Lordhat wrote:Actually, Vulkan is way better than either just because of the synergy between his rules and the load out on bike squads.

That depends on how you load out your bike squads. If you have 2 MG + MM, then yes, its a great investment. I don't use Vulcan b/c I use my 2nd HQ slot for the librarian.

Yes, if you load out with plasma Vulkan isn't as good a choice, but with either meltas or flamers he's great. And for some reason I've always disliked Librarians. Not that they aren't a good choice, and I have regretted not having psychic defense a time or two, but just simply because my homebrew marine chapter doesn't trust much that has to do with the warp. It's a flavor thing. That being said, I've only regretted the lack a few times; I just roll with the punches and let the inherent synergy in my army do it's thing.

Lordhat wrote:My homebrew marine chapter doesn't trust much that has to do with the warp. It's a flavor thing.

That's a great reason for deciding to play in a particular fashion.
Its a game. If we can't play for style and have fun, what he heck are we doing eh?

labmouse42 wrote:

th3eviltwin wrote:what is ravenwing and deathwing?

Look up the Dark Angel codex. Everything is in that book.

So i should pay 30$ to buy one online or dirve an hour and a halve other asking to learn somthing about a army thats in the name of a thread from some one who cant get to the codex eather so he asked for help?

You can also Google it.

In a nutshell, Ravenwing are DA bikers. They have slightly different costs and rules than C:SM
Deathwing are similar, but special terminators.

There is rich history for them, which is why I suggested looking at the book.

I personally like Khan more with vanguard vets its amazing with +1 initiative

th3eviltwin wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

th3eviltwin wrote:what is ravenwing and deathwing?

Look up the Dark Angel codex. Everything is in that book.

So i should pay 30$ to buy one online or dirve an hour and a halve other asking to learn somthing about a army thats in the name of a thread from some one who cant get to the codex eather so he asked for help?

This.


This whole thread is to discuss the differences, what are the bonuses of each without having to buy the codex. I've done a dakka search and know the gist of both armies separate but not comparatively.

As people have mentioned. A Standard captain is totally superior to Kahn (with the sole exception of expensive deathstars) and C:SM does bikers better than RW.

As for Vulkan, he makes you go from an average of 2 melta hits/squad to 2.66 and for that you lose combat tactics (which really is a huge thing for a bike army) and have to pay the equivalent of another bike squad.

th3eviltwin wrote:what is ravenwing and deathwing?

Deathwing is the 1st Dark Angels company and is composed purely of Terminators, Venerable Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders. The Company Master of the 1st company unlocks terminators as troops. Dark Angels can split the armament of their terminators so an assault terminator group can take an assault cannon along with 4 ss/th or any combination of s/b and melee weapons. In the Tale of Two Heads talking 5 deathwing terminators and a terminator librarian single handedly liberate a world from domination by a genestealer cult. The primary job of the Deathwing is capturing the Fallen.

Ravenwing is the 2nd Dark Angels Company and is composed purely of bikes, attack bikes, and land speeders. The Company Master of the 2nd Company unlocks bikes as troops as well as any attack bikes or land speeders that are attached to the Ravenwing Attack Squad. Sammael (the Master) has one of the only jetbikes left in the Imperium, but also as a Land Speeder with AV14. The greatest advantage I can see is the Ravenwing Support Squads with 75pt Typhoons, though they can only get 1 typhoon per squad. All bikes get teleport homers which in combination with the scout move can get half the players terminators to teleport next to them in the first round giving the terminators much less ground to cover on foot. The primary purpose of the Ravenwing is to scout out the possible locations of the Fallen and bring them back.

Alright took the leap bought the sm codex. I couldn't specifically find where it says taking a captain on a bike unlocks troop bikers. Any advice on that one?

Also, we've been playing with Khan and he's great. For 200 points he gets to have all the razorbacks infiltrate, and he gives his unit infiltrate which is doubly nice, furious charge too.

Also, we've been playing with Khan and he's great. For 200 points he gets to have all the razorbacks infiltrate, and he gives his unit infiltrate which is doubly nice, furious charge too.

He gives outflank, not at all the same as infiltrate. Also, the biggest thing he brings to the table is hit&run + furious charge, which makes any close combat unit he joins tons better. Unfortunatly, he takes away combat tactics, which, together with his bad gear and high price makes him worse than a normal bike captain in most lists

Khan is only good if you include assault termies or a close combat command squad on bikes in your army

Alright took the leap bought the sm codex. I couldn't specifically find where it says taking a captain on a bike unlocks troop bikers. Any advice on that one?

It's right there on the captain page - mounted assault is the heading of the textbox