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/rant


So I started my fall into chaos back in 1995. with a simple question to a hobby store owner. "Whats the most alien race in 40k?". "Chaos" he said. Must have been a chaos recruiter or something. Anywho I walked out with my first couple of minis. A chaos lord, two Juggernaughts (they didn't need riders back then) and a Chaos codex(well in 3rd it was more of a leaflet.) I was taken by the sad plight of the Plague marines. I was completely lost to the dark when I found out that plague marines had fat bellies, cloven hooves and nazi spike helms. the plasma gunner had insect eyes a gas mask and a wooden stock for his gun. Add in rusted pocket knives heads filled with wax and a happy go lucky grandfather of a god and I was hooked. To the point when I had a custom diamond inlaid ruby ring shaped like the nurgle symbol. A few years later most of my army was stolen by a store owner addicted to everquest. Around that time chaos codex 3.5 came around. I read the "why play chaos" section(in my mind the best Why play ever written) The hero pushed to far over the edge and Chapter Master who saw first hand what the inquisition and grey knights do to loyal troops, struck a chord. Then I read the sad tale of Konrad Curze. I developed a "dislike for the false emperor that lasts to this day. Dark knight, my chaos lord (thought it was clever at the time, no internet to tell me I was a noob) faced down blood angel rhino rush, Black templar Ass-cannon spam and wolfen. Necrons with no codex and Harlies with a codex. I collected all the night lord bits and pieces maxed out my FA slots took the one lone Heavy support slot. Got the FW nightlord dread and paid extra for the night lord troop box. All was well till the 4th edition codex.

Now I won't rant about that I'll just say this. If say the blood angels (old edition) were discontinued for the most part you could slap a blue coat on your tac squad and call it a day. (You'd still be pissed as hell). Now think if that did that this edition. What would you do with all the extra jump troops? I now had an useless extra useless fast attack. and a bunch of night lords (plenty who were metal.) that were not only unuseable but unconvertable. (chaos loves funky helms and armor) No matter what color you pain a Nightlord he still has bat ears and the legion symbol pasted every where. Having to rip up my Chaos lord and most of my Aspiring champs, I could deal with though. The 4th edition codex isn't bad. Hell I still get by with a winged Chaos lord hopping out of a rhino and assaulting the back of a unit while the CSM hit the front (and powerfist). I blame 4th edition Iron warriors and Khorne daemon princes for the big nerf. I tried to warn people to not abuse them or we would get nerfed. I remember one gamesday Atlanta. where 50% of the players were iron warriors and I got this sick feeling in my stomach. I dreaded hearing about the new codex because our old codex hadn't aged badly at all. I knew what was going to happen.

However my first gripe is when the 4th edition codex writer states that people who miss the old legion rules and fluff were power gaming tourney players. Not the people left with a useless fw dread and a full squad of useless FA, and useless HQ and aspiring champs( although the last two could be ripped apart). Lord forbid all the sonic upgraded Noise crap (although they did get a Apoc sheet).

So now I use Blood angels. I get to use all my raptor units again. My FW Dread lives again. My Chaos lord carries a huge chainsword and headbutts people. I get to use freaking hand flamers! Yet I hear people say I only play the Blood angel codex to power game. If I wanted to powergame I'd played IW 3.5 and switch to double lash oblit plague spam for 5th. That build still wins...at Ard Boyz no less. Blood angels simply gave me the ability to play the army I paid more for. I don't care that I use a HQ that is sub par. He carries a huge chainsword and headbutts people. That's fun, not power gaming. Being able to use an army that was squated again, is fun, not powergaming.

/rant

Cool story, bro

Amen, brother. I can hear my Thousand Sons crying on their shelf. I was not current broke, I'd be using the BA codex too(libby dread ftw! Although it's BS that the BA have them, it's just that they are the most recent SM codex).

A codex is just a set of rules we use to play with our toy soldiers.

As long as its WYSIWYG, or close enough, IDK if you use the BA codex to play Chaos.

I feel your pain. Gathering dust is my Corrupt Sisters army, heavily converted Slaaneshi marines. Maybe a future Codex'll permit them to see the light of day again.

sexiest_hero wrote:/rant
/rant

All armies change between editions. Blood angels used to get veteran assault squads that could have two flamers. Now everyone's assault squads can have two flamers but a BA veteran assault squad cannot. BA used to get five man tac squads with a special weapon but now they don't. I have death company models with two-handed power axes which haven't been legal since 2nd edition. I have squads with hand-flamers - those also haven't been legal since 2nd edition but are suddenly back.

All those 4th edition gun-line marine armies are dramatically worse now, anyone sensible will have changed them dramatically. 4th edition made vehicle into death traps - all the players with piles of rhinos had them suddenly made dramatically worse.

Between codex and rulebook revisions, all armies are forced to change - it's just one of those things. It could be a lot worse than every four years or so - go and ask some Magic players what that's like...

(btw, only the last tag should have a slash - you should have put "rant --stuff--- /rant")

I used to play magic. got into it when it first started. got out of it when it became about power gaming. Every expac had something to crush the one before it. Turns out I just wanted to fight hordes of goblins with my angry elephant deck. I still break out the old cards to play with my wife every now and then.

If I was you, I'd hand the people who complain a Chaos Codex and a Blood Angels Codex and ask them which one they think best represents an army that are specialists at fast, brutal strikes with a ton of jump troops.

So long as you don't start going for the more hideous Blood Angel only units, such as Sanguinary Priests, that don't mesh with the Night Lords fluff I really don't think you can be accused of power gaming. I think people are just sick to death of getting stomped in the face by that codex, and it's getting a bit of a negative reputation.

Agree with Scott-S6 & Jon Garrett. It happens to everyone. If you're picking units which best fit the Night Lords theme and not maxing-out the non-thematic BA stuff, no one who's opinion matters will think you're a power gamer. Gav Thorpe was just being dumb.

Meh. I'm just sick of the whole dichotomy of either you are or you aren't WAAC. My attitude is that which I'm sure is shared most gamers.

I play to have fun.

Winning is fun.

Winning is not the only way to have fun, and if I lose, I'll still have fun.

Modeling and creating a story can be, and often are, just as fun as playing a game.

And, of course, the social aspect is vitally important. If you're not creating a community, why bother?

Winning does not preclude being social, but min/maxing, TFG, WAAC play often blocks that.

Again, though, this is not entirely the case, as there are groups which enjoy created OP armies and pitting them against each other.

It is odd, I suppose, that given this is a game where the goal is to win so many people have such an issue with a list designed to do just that. I think the main thing about being a win at all costs kinda person is that, at the end of the day, all you care about is winning. If your opponent is miserable doesn't matter. Heck, it might even be a bonus, as it means they'll quite and give you the win.

The problem with a tournament build list is that nine out of ten people in a average game, if it's just some random dude, isn't gonna be able to cope with it. The game might as well go that you hand over your army list, they smile and nod and shake your hand and walk off. It might be that the player is newer, or doesn't have the resources to buy and convert the best units, or simply likes models that are less than perfect.

But needless to stay, getting stomped into the mud just isn't fun. It must be especially frustrating for players who don't know that many of the codexes aren't made equal, and because they like the look of Tau they're gonna get the balls ripped off by a Space Wolf player. Being told Tau is a shooty army and seeing Space Wolves unleash 18+ missles at you must be damned frustrating.

It's not as though you should never take decent units. But playing Mech Guard against a kid you know whose only anti tank is the Black Reach missle launcher is a dick move. And a lot of people are feeling that the Blood Angels codex is pretty much an auto-win against a lot of other armies. I'd be lying if I said the buggers hadn't been messing up my win/loss ration, if I actually kepty track of it.

But that doesn't sound like what you're doing. Just explain that to them. Look! No Mephiston, but a Captain with a Jump Pack. Look! No Sanguinary Priests. Look! No deep striking Land Raiders or Stormraven gunships. Just a list you should be able to play if Codex: Chaos Space Marine wasn't secretly titled Codex: Black Legion.

It's the your fault the Chaos codex is garbage. I'm sure it will rebound nicely in 2012-2013 when it gets redone for 5th or 6th. Until then, enjoy your Blood Angels. Who cares what the haters say.

I sympathise with the OP. Not all units/armies in 40k are balanced, some are more equal than others. So unless you genuinely enjoy losing consistently, you will probably end up taking some of the best units in your codex. You don't want to be at a disadvantage in facing your friends after all. I don't think that's bad, I think it's perfectly natural. Everyone 'plays to win' to some extent, if your group plays with the harder armies in the game, this will result in well-tuned armies.

I just wish GW were a bit better at playtesting. Then we wouldn't have some people saying "I think these are cool, and very luckily it's one of the best units in the game!" and some people saying "I think these are cool, unfortunately it's absolutely terrible!" There shouldn't be so big a gap between the good and the bad units, or the must-have and never-take upgrades.

I'd say do what you enjoy, and don't make yourself suffer just because it seems more 'correct'. Haters gonna hate!

Yep, do what you feel is best.

And hell, I'd be happy to let a CSM player use any codex he damn wanted, just to make up for how much they have been nerfed into the ground.

sexiest_hero wrote:/rant

So I started my fall into chaos back in 1995. with a simple question to a hobby store owner. "Whats the most alien race in 40k?". "Chaos" he said. Must have been a chaos recruiter or something. Anywho I walked out with my first couple of minis. A chaos lord, two Juggernaughts
/rant

You got blatantly lied to. Chaos is not the most alien race, it's not even Xenos. It's fricking humans in spiky space suits yes that's right HUMANs not Aliens.

The most alien race has got to be Tyranids, Necrons, Tau but hell even Eldar are more legitimately more "alien" than Chaos.

I hope you now realize your entire life has been a lie.

DorianGray wrote:

sexiest_hero wrote:/rant

So I started my fall into chaos back in 1995. with a simple question to a hobby store owner. "Whats the most alien race in 40k?". "Chaos" he said. Must have been a chaos recruiter or something. Anywho I walked out with my first couple of minis. A chaos lord, two Juggernaughts
/rant

You got blatantly lied to. Chaos is not the most alien race, it's not even Xenos. It's fricking humans in spiky space suits yes that's right HUMANs not Aliens.

The most alien race has got to be Tyranids, Necrons, Tau but hell even Eldar are more legitimately more "alien" than Chaos.

I hope you now realize your entire life has been a lie.

> The Topic.






> Your head.

Notice the positioning.



On Topic: While I detest the use of such.... "things" (seriously, drawing a blank there) of using a different codex other than the one your actually playing, I can definately see the appeal. I used to make fun of people who did this, but meh, no point anymore.

I'm just glad that GW realizes they did bad on the CSM codex and realize they are going to have to make it up to us. First part is fact, second part is admitingly wishful thinking.

Just pray it doesn't take as long as the Dark Elfdar!

I really don't have a big problem with the new Chaos codex; it's hard to feel sorry for a codex that has the Lash of Submission in it.

I sympathize with losing the customization that you could have in the 3.5 army, but with a little converting and imagination you could run a counts-as army that's everything you want it to be. As Mannahnin says, no one who's opinion matters would care.

Lash isn't good. Mainly because lash means taking MoS & thus losing out on the T6 of MoN which is much more useful. Also I find warptime better in every situation I end up in.

The chaos book isn't good now, sure it can compete but it has 1, maybe 2 max builds. I fully simpathize with you & have been called just such a "WAAC Power Gamer" when I'm just trying to play the game the way I want. With a book that has more than one obvious option per FoC slot.

I agree with you OP. Chaos got screwed over heavily by their newest codex. Use whatever ruleset you like.

Monster Rain wrote:I really don't have a big problem with the new Chaos codex; it's hard to feel sorry for a codex that has the Lash of Submission in it.

It's a useful power, but unless you're taking an Undivided list, a Slannesh list or the Tournamnet list of two Princes and a bunch of Plague Marines it's not that much use. For a bunch of builds or Legion themes it's not really relevant. I think the big issue with this codex and the old codex is that, while the old Codex certainly didn't make all lists equal (Iron Warriors and Daemonbomb being the nastiest) you could run most of the legions and get there flavour, and still have the list be, if not brilliant, at least still fairly usable. This time, because it's been so heavily geared towards Undivided using Cult Troops, that's not as easy. Plus, you really can't play a lot of armies, not really. Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Iron Warriors really don't feel like they used to. In the case of Iron Warriors, that might be because you can't slaughter the whole enemy from across the board, but it would be nice to take some of there old gear too. Night Lords, the subject of this particular thread, feel like they're handicapped if they take a bunch of Raptors. Especially compared to even regular Blue Marines Assault Marines.

Not WAAC at all really, it's a game and you are using a set of models to 'counts as BA'. If you're happy and both sides have (damn you dice ) fun then that's the whole point of playing. It's not that far from me using 'counts as' Leman Russes in my Guard, they are a slightly different shape (longer and slightly narrower) but consistantly so and I have no problems.

Since I started using my Tau army with the "counts as Space Wolves" I've been doing a lot better.

It's amazing how much cheap long range firepower and space magic the SWolves get for a chapter that specialises in melee and hates magic.

The excellent melee ability is awesome too.

Cool, that CC attachment on the end of a pulse rifle must have a great reach, that must be what's doing it for ya

Your using the codex that best represents your army, just ignore people who complain. I personally don't have a problem with counts as (you want to play nids as IG as long as it's clear and similar sized go for it) but I can understand people complain if people play armies that are nothing like the army they represent. Key thing here is that you can't make a NL army with the chaos codex.

If anyone complains just give them both codexs and ask them to write you their best fluffy NL list from either book.

I run Word Bearer's. Nothing sucks more than either having to take a bunch of nearly useless 'generic daemons' or running just all CSM. I'd love to run them according to their fluff but it just doesn't exist anymore. At least you have a recourse to be able to 'count' your NL's as BA and play your army as it should be played.

Really, using another codex to represent your army is only WAAC if the codex little resembles the "real" codex for that force, or if you use units that there should be no way of using in that army.

For Example, a Word Bearers Counts-As Spacewolves

Wolflord--> Chaos Lord
Wolflord on Thunderwolf--> Demon Prince

Wolfguard (PA)--> Khorne Berzerkers/Chosen/Possessed
Wolfguard (TA)--> Terminators
Dreadnaught

Grey Hunters--> "Normal" World Eaters
Rhino

Thunderwolves--> Bloodcrushers/Marines riding Juggernaughts
Fenrisian Wolves--> Flesh Hounds
Skyclaws--> Raptors
Swiftclaws--> Bikers

Vindicator
Predator
Land Raider (Godhammer)
Long Fangs--> Havocs

Other units could not be taken, either because they are vehicles that only came into use post-herasy (Razorback), or because they do not mesh with the fluff for the World Eaters (Runepriests). Taking those causes you to veer into WAAC-ness, as they are good units without a fluff reason to use.

I would counter that with the question - if you want to use the space wolf codex why are you WAAC if you paint/model them as Word Bearers?

I suppose it would be because since you're using a Chaos army you should be using the Chaos codex, but instead you use one of the more powerful ones.