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I was at my FLGS the other day talking with one of the other players and he was preaching the idea of redundancy. He told me "You should always being 2 of one thing in case the first one fails, your plans are not ruined" As such, he recommended always bringing 2 vindicators instead of just one, for example. After careful thought I wanted to propose this idea to see what you dakkaites thought of it.

Instead of redundancy via unit type, do redundancy via unit role.

Example : Anti-trasnport
Typhoon speeders, Rifleman Dreads, AC/Las preads fill the same basic role of anti-transport. They excel at cracking open AV 10-12 at long range. Each one is slightly different though, having its own unique benefits.
* The rifleman can find obscurement more easily, and the smaller frame makes it easier for templates to scatter off
* The typhoon is highly maneuverable able to go 12" and fire its weapon.
* The predator has AV 13 on the front.
Instead of just buying 3 AC-LC preads, diversifying your anti-transport allows each one to utilize their own advantages allowing you to handle a broader expanse of situations.

Example : High STR anti-infantry
War Walkers and Vypers equipped with SC / SL bring the same thing to the table -- STR 6 weapons. These weapons are great for delivering wounds to T5/T6 targets, such as DPs. They are also useful vs. MEQ without FNP, and for taking down turbo-boosting targets. Finally, they can be good vs AV 10 and to a lesser degree AV 11. Each one is slightly different, however.
* The Vypers are fast skimmers and can move to take flanking shots more easily
* The Walkers pack more firepower and are slightly more resilient
Instead of just loading up on 3 walkers or 3 vypers diversifying your weapons gives you a broader selection to handle issues (if you plan on using guide, that changes the strategy a bit)

Example : Anti-AV 14
A Manticore has a good chance of stopping AV 14. So do 3 melta-vets dropped from a valk. They both fill the role of tackling high AV. EAch has their own advantage
* Manticores have great anti-horde roles. Its hard to scatter off a LR, and you can fire indirect.
* Melta gun vet squads can claim objectives, and are better vs smaller vehicles such as dreadnoughts.
Both server the same role with slightly different ways to get there.


Do you think this is a good idea, or just rubbish?
Can you guys think of other examples of redundancy via role instead of unit type?

This seems like a great idea to me. Especially because it messes with you opponents heads much more. Just look at this list from the Da BOyz

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Greg-Sparks-Da-Boyz-winner-.pdf

There isn't one redundant unit. Much harder to assess your enemy with that kind of line up than with the repeat lists.

I'm gonna try to tweak mine a little, using this thought process.

Actually, do it both ways.

Usually I build my lists in such a way where any one role is handled by two types of units and each type of unit I bring has at least two of them.

Of course, I'm a guard player so I can get away with that, but the same general rule applies. If you were relying on one kind of killing power that came from just one unit type, and your opponent is able to kill that one unit type because you only brought one unit of that type, you're doing something wrong.

Yes you're right, rifleman dreads are great at shooting up transports and infantry, but they're also great at tying up huge squads that come after near side objectives. And you can have other units which are useful for doing one of these tasks as well.

Just one example.

Ailaros wrote:Actually, do it both ways.

Usually I build my lists in such a way where any one role is handled by two types of units and each type of unit I bring has at least two of them.

Of course, I'm a guard player so I can get away with that, but the same general rule applies. If you were relying on one kind of killing power that came from just one unit type, and your opponent is able to kill that one unit type because you only brought one unit of that type, you're doing something wrong.

I subscribe to this school of thought also, obviously it is very important to make sure that you don't bring 1 unit to take out a certain aspect of an enemy force (it is far too easily hard countered) but I try to make sure I have my bases covered by my force but also that I make my opponent really have to pick and choose biggest threats rather than picking unit 1 of 3 and summarily going through each one. I like to force opponents to react to my force rather than rely on always having to react to their actions. Makes it so they will make the mistake more often.

Inalso agree with this stragegy. For example, in an ork list the general thing to do it to run either all slugga or all shoot a boyz. Why not a mix of both? Shootas are useful in situations that slug gas are not, but the extra attack from a slugga can do wonders in CC, why not have the best of both worlds?

labmouse42 wrote:I was at my FLGS the other day talking with one of the other players and he was preaching the idea of redundancy. He told me "You should always being 2 of one thing in case the first one fails, your plans are not ruined" As such, he recommended always bringing 2 vindicators instead of just one, for example. After careful thought I wanted to propose this idea to see what you dakkaites thought of it.

Instead of redundancy via unit type, do redundancy via unit role.

Example : Anti-trasnport
Typhoon speeders, Rifleman Dreads, AC/Las preads fill the same basic role of anti-transport. They excel at cracking open AV 10-12 at long range. Each one is slightly different though, having its own unique benefits.
* The rifleman can find obscurement more easily, and the smaller frame makes it easier for templates to scatter off
* The typhoon is highly maneuverable able to go 12" and fire its weapon.
* The predator has AV 13 on the front.
Instead of just buying 3 AC-LC preads, diversifying your anti-transport allows each one to utilize their own advantages allowing you to handle a broader expanse of situations.

Example : High STR anti-infantry
War Walkers and Vypers equipped with SC / SL bring the same thing to the table -- STR 6 weapons. These weapons are great for delivering wounds to T5/T6 targets, such as DPs. They are also useful vs. MEQ without FNP, and for taking down turbo-boosting targets. Finally, they can be good vs AV 10 and to a lesser degree AV 11. Each one is slightly different, however.
* The Vypers are fast skimmers and can move to take flanking shots more easily
* The Walkers pack more firepower and are slightly more resilient
Instead of just loading up on 3 walkers or 3 vypers diversifying your weapons gives you a broader selection to handle issues (if you plan on using guide, that changes the strategy a bit)

Example : Anti-AV 14
A Manticore has a good chance of stopping AV 14. So do 3 melta-vets dropped from a valk. They both fill the role of tackling high AV. EAch has their own advantage
* Manticores have great anti-horde roles. Its hard to scatter off a LR, and you can fire indirect.
* Melta gun vet squads can claim objectives, and are better vs smaller vehicles such as dreadnoughts.
Both server the same role with slightly different ways to get there.


Do you think this is a good idea, or just rubbish?
Can you guys think of other examples of redundancy via role instead of unit type?

It all really depends on the specific unit. Some have a very specialised role(sometimes very suicidal) and NEED to be taken in multiples, whilst others are more versitile and survivable and really doesnt matter how many you take or why.

A shining example is the Vindicator. If you plan on taking just a single vindicator, you might as well just omit yourself 115pts on your list and save yourself the time and money of actually modelling one. Vindicator is an anti-everything tank, that can be used to wipe out anything almost anything in the game except T6+ multiwounds, but due to its woefully short range and pathetic side and rear armor, almong with only 1 good weapon and no turret, it has a difficult time getting a shot off before getting shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed, immobilised and wrecked into oblivion. If you are looking at a Vindicator to perform its anti-everything role in your list, you need to take at least 2, maybe 3 to accomplish this.

A suicide MM bike or Speeder is another example. If you are going to be bum-rushing your enemy in hopes of taking out heavy armor, you NEED to be taking multiples in hope that a few will survive to hit their intended targets.

A Rifleman Dreadnought on the other hand is very survivable and has a very niche role of taking out light armor. Aside from busting open AV 10-11, and maybe throwing a couple saves on a critical small unit like long fangs or weapons teams, its not going to do much else. The Rifleman is easy to hide inside a ruin or behind cover, and can be used to tie up assault units below str 7 in a pinch. A unit like this can be taken alone and be mixed and matched with other similar units like the Autolas predator and the Typhoon speeder.

All 3 units are very survivable and can fill different roles, so its almost optimum that you mix these units. The Typoon can switch to frags and be a devistating anti-infantry platform, or use its speed to harass the side armor of heavy vehicles like Leman Russes or Predators. The autolas predator will be only shooting at armor, or MC targets and is very weak to outflankers and assaults (that can be tied up by a nearby Rifle Dreadnought).