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HQ

Reclusiarch - 130


Troops

10X Man Tactical Squad w/ ML, Flamer - 170

10X Man Tactical Squad w/ ML, Flamer - 170

11X Man Death Company w/ BPs and CCWs, Powerfist, Infernus Pistol- 225

DC Dreadnought, HF - 125


Heavy Support

Stormraven w/ TL MM, TL LC, Extra Armor - 215

Stormraven w/ TL MM, TL LC, Extra Armor - 215

Stormraven w/ TL MM, TL LC, Extra Armor - 215


Not refined at all. Just sitting here with nothing better to do. If 2nd turn, deep strike, and on the turn they arrive unleash their considerable antitank and set up for a charge with the DC the next turn. Which shouldn't be hard to do with such a large range. Everyone else just runs around shooting. If 1st turn, flat out and hope for the best. Same plan, though. Get DC stuck in and have everyone else shoot and grab objectives.

Basing an entire army around 3 av12 hulls is not very solid. Imagine what a typical wolf list will do to you turn 1. 15 missile launchers = 3 dead ravens. Now you are slogging across the board with no support, no mobilty and over 1/3 of your army already dead.

Meh, I would say you would kill more like 1.5 on turn 1. =)

It also depends on how he places them, he can still screen or make use of high cover.

He could deep strike them in on turn 2 & plasma cannon those long fangs into atoms,that is if he equip them with cannons

3 AV 12 vehicles is not enough to stand in a 1500 point game.
A decent, well rounded army will shoot down 1-2 of them on the first turn. Thats nearly 1/3 of your points gone on the first turn.

One stormraven can deliver an extremely scary punch to an enemy. 3 of them .... not so much ...

Wait wait wait ... your saying 1 can do what 3 can't?

If it is so easy to get rid of 3 ... why is it so hard to kill 1?

I think what he's getting @ is 1 may slip under the radar,but 3 is gonna have all your opponents attention,with DSing them though that wouldn't matter you'd be on him like skaven on cheese

I can see something like a rhino or raider slipping under the radar, but a big ole flying box screaming HERE I AM SHOOT ME. 1 or 3 is not going to make a diff IMO, other than if you bought 1 you probably spent even more points on the contents.

Clay Williams wrote:I can see something like a rhino or raider slipping under the radar, but a big ole flying box screaming HERE I AM SHOOT ME. 1 or 3 is not going to make a diff IMO, other than if you bought 1 you probably spent even more points on the contents.

Its all about target saturation. Do you shoot at that stormraven, or the 6 rhinos/razorbacks that just shot forward 18"?

Thats why 1 will work where 3 wont IMHO. With 1 stormraven you will have enough points to buy other targets that will draw fire. If you buy 3 stormravens, its to much of a point sink to let you buy other targets.

I dunno but for me its drop the raven. Any vehical that you can assault out of in an assualt list is priority. Rhinos yes they are a threat but not as much on turn 2 as that raven.

Labmouse42 has a very valid point, but if i fielded ravens there'd be empty & i'd DoA the marines in & have a podnought & keep the ravens as tank hunters

Clay Williams wrote:I can see something like a rhino or raider slipping under the radar, but a big ole flying box screaming HERE I AM SHOOT ME. 1 or 3 is not going to make a diff IMO, other than if you bought 1 you probably spent even more points on the contents.

And if the one stormraven is flying right in front of the 6 forementioend rhinos, you want it shot at over the rhinos. The stormraven is much more resilient to melta weapons, and has a higher armor than the other transports. If its a fast skimmer (I cant remember) it will also get a 4+ obscurement save from all those shots as well. Even if its destroyed, you have enough troops pouring out on turn 2 from your other vehicles that you can overwhelm the enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Clay Williams wrote:I dunno but for me its drop the raven. Any vehical that you can assault out of in an assualt list is priority. Rhinos yes they are a threat but not as much on turn 2 as that raven.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this math.

Rhinos rush up 18" on turn 1.
Units deploy 2" from rhinos on turn 2
Units move 6" up
Units assault 6"
Total Distance traveled : 32"
Average distance from the enemy deployment board edge = 36 inches.

Now, the nickel question is...can the stormraven deep strike the deploy troops that can assault?

Right but I assume your talking about gunline vs BA ... who in the world isnt going to hug to board edge for the first few turns?

And if you can take out 3 storm ravens on the first turn (you assumed in your initial arguement that you had first turn) then how many rhinos can you down? I am just repeating the information you have given us. This is also considering that the board is free of terrain and that you can move in straight lines.

-why would you move up and use melta on a stormraven
-why would you take the risk of moving your rhinos 18?


No you can not assault after deep striking.

Clay Williams wrote:Right but I assume your talking about gunline vs BA ... who in the world isnt going to hug to board edge for the first few turns?

Who has vehicles that are shorter than 4" Look at the length of the average chimera. Gunlines need to start more than just at their board edge.

Clay Williams wrote:And if you can take out 3 storm ravens on the first turn (you assumed in your initial arguement that you had first turn) then How many rhinos can you down?

Lets say 3. How many more rhinos/razorbacks are available? Rhinos cost many less points.

Clay Williams wrote:why would you move up and use melta on a stormraven

Its the closest target, big and imposing. Most people are going to be intimidated by that.

Clay Williams wrote:why would you take the risk of moving your rhinos 18?

What would you suggest?

So we are saying that you can take out 1 storm raven and 3 rhinos top of 1 and 4 more rhinos at the top of turn 2 that moved 18" so all the occupants are dead.

Now all we got to do is mop up the foot sloggers!

- I would suggest moving 12 and saving the 18 for do or die situations.

- I was assuming we were talking about skilled players and not run of the mill "I know my codex" players.

Again this is all based off of 3 storm ravens will die first turn. Your words.

I think the best way to use the Stormraven is to have the minimum on board to assault. In other words I would use a Stormraven with one Dreadnought on board. I would couple it with a unit of assault terminators or death company in a Land Raider. Throw in 1-2 Vindicators and maybe a Furioso Librarian. Now you have presented your opponent with a multitude of threats to him right away. The Stormraven would have a better chance of surviving the opening salvo with so many immediate threats to go along with it.

If you take the Stormraven without any other immediate threats (things that can hit the enemy hard from turn 1) then your opponent can prioritize the targets.

turn 1 threats
turn 2 threats
turn 3 threats
etc..

You target turn 1 threats first. Those are few and far between, but the stormraven with a DC dread is one. So are vindicators. The LR with assault terminators and librarian dread are turn 2 threats which are more powerful than the turn 1 threats so that makes them turn 1 threats also.

The Stormraven would work best in lists with a bunch of turn 1 threats.

Clay Williams wrote:So we are saying that you can take out 1 storm raven and 3 rhinos top of 1 and 4 more rhinos at the top of turn 2 that moved 18" so all the occupants are dead.

So you assume that when a vehicle is destroyed, all the occupants suddenly die in vehicles that move 18?

Why would you be shooting at the remaining 4 rhinos/razorbacks on turn 2, when their contents are assaulting you?

Clay Williams wrote:Your words. Your words.

There is a nice way to have a discussion, and a way to sound like a douche-bag. Lets try and say on the pleasant side, shall we?

Read the new 40k faq no assumptions were made.

So are we talking about a scenerio in which the BA goes first or second because the original example was second. So top of turn two the occupants are still in the vehicals waiting to be shot at ... right?

If a vehical moves over 12" it is moving flat out. Any transport that moves flat out and is distroyed has its occupants removed as casualties. (paraphrased)

Well ya if you double quote.
I only "sound" like a dbag because that is how you are reading it, if you are hostile then you take my tones as hostile.

Clay Williams wrote:If a vehical moves over 12" it is moving flat out. Any transport that moves flat out and is distroyed has its occupants removed as casualties. (paraphrased)

?!?!?!

Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

Ok, given that I agree that one should never move flat out unless absolutely required. Thats a dramatic change.
It also puts a painful pinch on a number of armies, like KoS, Eldar, and IG moving vet squads in Vendettas.

Kinda takes the punch out of those fast mover armies huh?

Thats why I am such a proponent of the ravens. Keep them moving 12 adding support fire and the unit inside gets its free ride to assault land without the risk of everyone disappearing into the aether.

Clay Williams wrote:

If a vehical moves over 12" it is moving flat out. Any transport that moves flat out and is distroyed has its occupants removed as casualties. (paraphrased)

I am fairly sure that this is wrong. If you are a skimmer that moved flat out, and you get destroyed, your occupants are dead. Not if you have treads.

Thanks everyone for the posts. I understand that only 3 AV12 vehicles is not enough, but I hoped that maybe the 4+ cover save and lack of melta might save them. However, through the helpful post of somebodyIforget, I see that perhaps it is good as a heavy hitter, not the whole team. It is too expensive and is too fragile for that. However, it might be quite useful in combination with other things, like land raiders or a rhino rush, as the puncher.

Am I correct in that conclusion?

Nope its the new FAQ.

Treads, wheels, or floats your dead if over 12" ..... cept for the orks.

Hmmm....lets think about the armament's on the raven, and what it can fill in its role. It can move up to 6" and fire all of its weapons.

It has a lot of weapons that seem to encourage it to not move quickly. 4 missiles and TL-MM and TL-AC.
What if you moved up 6" the first and second turn (assuming you were not stunned/shaken) and fired off both guns and 2 missiles each turn. It gives the following advantages
* MM shots at 24" are better than LC for taking down most armor
* AC shots are better than LC for all armor types, and can multi-task vs infantry
* 2 STR 8 AP1 large blast templates can take down light-medium armor and work well vs. infantry.
So your gunship can be used as a medium range support vehicle for 2 rounds while you advance. After those 2 rounds, you should be about 16" or so away, which allows you to move forward 12", deploy 2" and have them assault 6"

Now, back to the original question, would 3 of those be worth it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

prussia59 wrote:I am fairly sure that this is wrong. If you are a skimmer that moved flat out, and you get destroyed, your occupants are dead. Not if you have treads.

I just looked at the latest FAQ from GW for the BRB. I even quoted it in a post a few minutes ago in this thread.

Any vehicle moving over 12" will result in dead occupants if it goes kablowie.
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

It puts a cramp on those eldar players who like to tank shock your army.
It puts a cramp on air calv from IG. Suddenly they can lose the vet squad in.
It puts a cramp on BA rhino/razorback rushes.

labmouse42 wrote:Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

Note it says SAME TURN, not game turn so it only applies if you move flat out and are destroyed during your player turn. (i.e. moving into difficult terrain and failing a check thus immobilizing said vehicle which when moving flat out becomes destroyed)

pg. 9 (small brb): Hence one game turn will comprise two player turns. Whenever a rule uses the word 'turn', both in this rule book and in the Codexes, it means 'player turn' otherwise it will clearly state 'game turn'.

Ah, ok. That makes a considerable difference.