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This list is based around the amazing fire suppression abilities and resilience of the rifleman dreads, combined with the threat of zooming speeders, dropping dreads and high speed rhinos.
The honor guard is kind of a weird expensive unit that drops in late and slaughters a unit that's lost its transport or takes rear shots on vulnerable vehicles. Yes they are expensive but they are a serious disruption. When I have them in reserve I display them prominently on the sideline and make sure my opponent knows they could come in at any time

My goal here is to maintain a seriously threatening base of shooting that keeps you pinned down while more aggressive units pick you apart. Any better ideas about how to serve this same purpose would be welcome.

Not really sure what to do with the librarian if I don't combat squad, any HQ suggestions would be welcome as well.

Thanks,
rdlb

HQ
Librarian
Fear of the Darkness
Shackle Soul

Honor Guard
Plasma x4
Power Weapon x4
Drop Pod

Elites
Furioso
Heavy Flamer
Magna Grapple
Blood Talons
Drop Pod
Deathwind Launcher

Furioso
Heavy Flamer
Magna Grapple
Blood Talons
Drop Pod
Deathwind Launcher

Troops
Tactical Squad (10)
Plasma Gun
LasCannon
Rhino

Tactical Squad (10)
Flamer
LasCannon
Rhino

Fast Attack
Land Speeder
MM & HF

Land Speeder
MM & HF

Heavy Support
Dreadnought
TL Autocannons

Dreadnought
TL Autocannons

Dreadnought
TL Autocannons

Looks very solid

Based on some of labmouse's advice in the tactics thread I'm trying to mix things up a little.

I can't see getting rid of any of the rifleman. They are too good at shooting just about anything. They can easily get cover, and they can tie up a unit in CC. The Predator costs more and you lose all that to move one point of armor from the side to the front.

However, one tactical squad can be replaced with an assault squad that will cost me one Lascannon, but save a ton of points on the transport.

The honor guard can lose the power weapons or convert the plasma to melta. I'm not sure if I have enough anti-tank for a large AV13/14 force. Podding dreads get two side/rear shots with the magna-grapple and melta. The speeders can shoot turn two.

Do I need to turn the honor guard into a dedicated anti-tank unit?

Ok, here are my thoughts.

* How much does that honor guard cost? They deliver a nice punch vs. MEQ.
* Why did you go with TAC squads over assault squads? Most BA lists use assault squads. Maybe 1 becomes an assault squad.
* With 2 speeders, 3 riflemen, and your furioso's you have lots of things that can crack armor.
* Can BA get typhoons? MM are great, but you have to get close to really make them worthwhile, which makes the vulnerable.
* BA predators/vindicators are both fast vehicles -- an incredible advantage. You can move your predator 6" and fire all the weapons
* Did I mention a fast vindicator? Moving 12" and firing the pie plate is incredible.
* Why no love for baal predators? An AC has a better chance to crack all armor types than a LC? Throw HB sponsons for great anti-infantry

I see your idea is drop pods with support fire. Ive seen it work really well for raven guard. Let me know how it works for you

Honor Guard is 175pts--without the power weapons--I think power weapons just have to go. The 4 PW is an extra 60 points, but awesome on a unit with furious charge.

I went with tacticals because the assault squad is not that great at assault without a priest, and a tactical is great at shooting. Turning one into an assault squad is a good idea, but only if I make it a nine man squad and put a priest in. At least that's what I'm thinking. On the other hand people usually leave junk like pathfinders or scouts on a home objective, and if I can get to them they'd be toasted by two flamers.

I don't take typhoons because without the multimelta I'm awful low on things that can stop a Land Raider. Typhoons are also a lot more points.

I think if I can save 60 points on the power weapons of the honor guard, 15 points on the switch from tactical to assault, and make up 40 points somewhere else I can fit in a Baal... I really don't want to lose the death wind launchers because I frequently drop the pods empty and create a bottleneck, while marching the dreads across the field. This is very situational, but sometimes it works great and the dreads do make it into CC.

So far the list has worked pretty well against Dark Eldar, Orks and Tyranids. Also one space wolf game but it was not an optimized tournament list by any means. The tyranid/dark eldar player is very good and hard to beat, I've never really clobbered him, just kind of eeeked it out

Anyway, it just seems like the list doesn't flow as well as my DOA list in its current formation. So thanks for your suggestions, I will make some changes and see how it works out.

RD

This list is far from pretty solid...

Librarian hasn't got the best powers, unleash rage and shield of sanguinus will make squads in combat kick more ass and the vehicles get a cover save.

Honour Guard are a huge point sink. They come in with a Drop Pod, ok that's fine with plasmas but wtf with power weapons? You do know they won't get the bonus attack and cannot charge after using plasmas, so either stand and shoot or assault either way a weapon has been wasted and please don't say counter assault because no one will assault them with mass power weapons unless it's a horde which will bring them down.

Furiosos are alright though grapple is debatable as blood talons are loads better against infantry, not vehicles. Pod with deathwind is a waste because it cannot shoot the turn it lands and I don't think many will let it stand with a large blast waiting to fire next turn.

Only two Rhinos means easy to target, just deep striking them as Assault Squads instead. Tacticals do not belong in a Angel army.

Speeders are ok so are the Dreadnoughts.

A much better list would be:

Librarian - jump pack, shield of sanguinus & unleash rage

Honour Guard - jump packs & 4 x plasma guns/maybe meltas instead

2 x Sanguinary Priests - jump packs

Furioso Dreadnought w/ Drop Pod - blood talons, heavy flamer & extra armour

Furioso Dreadnought w/ Drop Pod - blood talons, heavy flamer & extra armour

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - Sgt w/ power fist

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - Sgt w/ power fist

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - Sgt w/ power fist

Dreadnought w/ Drop Pod - multi melta & heavy flamer - Pod w/ locator beacon

Dreadnought - twin-linked autocannons

Dreadnought - twin-linked autocannons

With the new list you have better powers on the Librarian which will benefit the army more.

The Honour Guard isn't wasting points taking wargear which they cannot use all the time.

Furiosos are better setup for mauling infantry and a additional Pod added so two come down first turn, not one which would be picked on and destroyed.

Assault Squads are mobile and can actually do something, they deep strike adding more in your face threats.

Dreadnought give long range fire while the other makes up the number of Pods.

Your list advice is to make a DOA list by adding 38 jump pack troopers that weren't in my original list. Thanks...

mercer wrote:
Librarian hasn't got the best powers, unleash rage and shield of sanguinius will make squads in combat kick more ass and the vehicles get a cover save.

The idea is that there are not a lot of squads to put in combat. There are two 10 man squads for objective grabbing.

The vehicles here are usually spread out, shooty dreads are spread out so some get side shots, speeders and Furiosos are moving around up front, and rhinos are shooting around the edges for objective grabs, so maybe one or two vehicles would get cover. Not worth it since this isn't a parking lot of razorspam.

Fear of the Darkness and Shackle Soul are much better in this list because they can neutralize certain key units after transports get popped. Pushing someone off an objective or making a squad take leadership tests everytime they want to move/shoot/assault is priceless. Maybe smite/bloodlance would make sense for when he pods in with the plasma squad.

mercer wrote:
Honour Guard are a huge point sink. They come in with a Drop Pod, ok that's fine with plasmas but wtf with power weapons? You do know they won't get the bonus attack and cannot charge after using plasmas, so either stand and shoot or assault either way a weapon has been wasted and please don't say counter assault because no one will assault them with mass power weapons unless it's a horde which will bring them down.

"because no one will assault them with mass power weapons"--exactly! Only high initiative armies will risk assaulting them and a squad with FNP and possibly in cover will distract a lot of shooting. If I can bust open a transport and then pull a unit back from advancing in the mid game this is a huge benefit. They're not supposed to survive or even make their points back in simple terms of destruction.

mercer wrote:
Furiosos are alright though grapple is debatable as blood talons are loads better against infantry, not vehicles. Pod with deathwind is a waste because it cannot shoot the turn it lands and I don't think many will let it stand with a large blast waiting to fire next turn. Only two Rhinos means easy to target, just deep striking them as Assault Squads instead. Tacticals do not belong in a Angel army.

Hopefully my enemy will shoot at drop pods, that would be great!! One more thing not shooting at dreads!
The magna-grapple/blood talon combo makes them more versatile. Doing multiple things well is what dreads are so good at.
And there are 5 dreads, two speeders, two pods with launchers, and two rhinos, not just two rhinos. Frequently a Tac squad is sitting back on a hidden objective while the Rhino is running around empty tank shocking and getting in the way.

rdlb wrote:Your list advice is to make a DOA list by adding 38 jump pack troopers that weren't in my original list. Thanks...

You don't have a DoD list with Tactical Squads and Dreadnoughts...

mercer wrote:
Librarian hasn't got the best powers, unleash rage and shield of sanguinius will make squads in combat kick more ass and the vehicles get a cover save.

The idea is that there are not a lot of squads to put in combat. There are two 10 man squads for objective grabbing.

Blood Angels are a assault army, combat is what they do.

Fear of the Darkness and Shackle Soul are much better in this list because they can neutralize certain key units after transports get popped. Pushing someone off an objective or making a squad take leadership tests everytime they want to move/shoot/assault is priceless. Maybe smite/bloodlance would make sense for when he pods in with the plasma squad.

Fear of the darkness isn't too bad because of -1 to morale, shackle soul isn't due to high leaderships but at least taking every time that unit does something.

mercer wrote:
Honour Guard are a huge point sink. They come in with a Drop Pod, ok that's fine with plasmas but wtf with power weapons? You do know they won't get the bonus attack and cannot charge after using plasmas, so either stand and shoot or assault either way a weapon has been wasted and please don't say counter assault because no one will assault them with mass power weapons unless it's a horde which will bring them down.

"because no one will assault them with mass power weapons"--exactly! Only high initiative armies will risk assaulting them and a squad with FNP and possibly in cover will distract a lot of shooting. If I can bust open a transport and then pull a unit back from advancing in the mid game this is a huge benefit. They're not supposed to survive or even make their points back in simple terms of destruction.

If no one is going to assault them and they cannot assault then why you got power weapons? As mentioned you lose the extra attack as you're taking plasma guns. This unit is confused what it's doing, is it assaulting or shooting and if it's assaulting it cannot do it so well. So, my point is the unit will just get shot up and not be in assault which means those power weapons won't get used and are waste of 60 points.

mercer wrote:
Furiosos are alright though grapple is debatable as blood talons are loads better against infantry, not vehicles. Pod with deathwind is a waste because it cannot shoot the turn it lands and I don't think many will let it stand with a large blast waiting to fire next turn. Only two Rhinos means easy to target, just deep striking them as Assault Squads instead. Tacticals do not belong in a Angel army.

Hopefully my enemy will shoot at drop pods, that would be great!! One more thing not shooting at dreads!
The magna-grapple/blood talon combo makes them more versatile. Doing multiple things well is what dreads are so good at.
And there are 5 dreads, two speeders, two pods with launchers, and two rhinos, not just two rhinos. Frequently a Tac squad is sitting back on a hidden objective while the Rhino is running around empty tank shocking and getting in the way.

Why would any one shoot at a Drop Pod and not a Dreadnought? Has your opponent got the IQ of a goldfish or 5 years old? My point is blood talons whoop arse against infantry, not so hot against vehicles as need 4+ to glance, not that good and no, there is just two Rhinos you just said which is my point again.

not really understanding why this is a BA list....

This would almost work better as a vanilla list.

A similar list I have been running for this style of list, taking advantage of fast vehicles for the BA-

Assault squads in a TL-Heavy flamer razorback, with a plasma pistol for the sgt and a Meltagun. These are cheap as chips to run in multiples of, and the vehicle moving 12, disembarking the troops to blow transports and then use the flamer to cook whatever comes out (and the vehicle lends itself to tank shocking troops all over the place)

3 Rifleman dreads (obviously) they tend to sit far enough back and with the razorbacks getting in the opponents face, will often not be on the receiving end of any shots.

Attack bikes with Multi-Meltas- they can pop vehicles left right and center, and are a lot easier to hide than landspeeders imo, and will not lose any firepower by taking a good hit from a bolter.

Furiosos with Frag cannons (and Heavy flamers) out of drop pods. They can hit things really hard the turn they drop, and the av 13 means that average troop units without power fists cant really do anything to them when you go into them in melee.

Honor Guard if you like, with melta or plasma guns- I like them in a Flamerback just for 1 more mobile platform.

mercer wrote:

rdlb wrote:Your list advice is to make a DOA list by adding 38 jump pack troopers that weren't in my original list. Thanks...

You don't have a DoD list with Tactical Squads and Dreadnoughts...

His point was that you took a non jump pack army and made it a doa army...

That said rdlb you might want to consider changing the 2 furioso's to furiosolibrarians for 175pts and they can still deepstrike

I beleive the librarian is stuck with his honor guard as a retinue correct? but you probebly want to make him part of that unit anyway and give them some close combat effectiveness

Also instead of tacticals you can keep some guns in the army and still make the units inside survivable and good in close combat so for troops:

2 squads of

5 man Assault squad
-meltagun
-PF
-Razorback + turret (las-plas or TL-Las or Assault cannon)
Sanguinary preist

240pts for that squad and you get a heavy weapon transport and a decent assault unit with FNP

so 480 for 2 troops

@ slick
I've been wanting to try that new frag cannon out and since the new model is so awesome I have no choice. Three templates must trash any infantry the turn they come in. Poor Tyranids

I know what you are saying about attack bikes. Our tables here are filled with buildings and such, even vendettas get some obscured saves once in a while. So jumping over terrain is more important to me than the LOS problems. Although I guess with two wounds a dangerous terrain roll isn't the end of the world.

@Gibbsey
Furioso Librarians are pretty viscious. I'll have to try them out next game. Two plus a libby would give all kinds of flexibility with powers and a very deep psychic defense.

The librarian is free to roam, but the problem in putting him with the honor guard is they're a semi-suicide unit for me, and I want his support later in the game when warping the minds of enemy squads is more important.

I'm going to try to replace one tactical with a full assault squad in a rhino first. For some reason when I run a razorback it gets executed, and rhinos just run free forever. But cutting them to five does free up points for the Furioso Libby...

Thanks for the input.

Gibbsey wrote:

mercer wrote:

rdlb wrote:Your list advice is to make a DOA list by adding 38 jump pack troopers that weren't in my original list. Thanks...

You don't have a DoD list with Tactical Squads and Dreadnoughts...

His point was that you took a non jump pack army and made it a doa army...

That said rdlb you might want to consider changing the 2 furioso's to furiosolibrarians for 175pts and they can still deepstrike

My point is jump packs go better with Dreadnoughts deep strike, though I cannot really say as the original list has been editted since I comment.

How are Librarian Dreadnoughts going to deep strike without a Drop Pod? Don't think it can cast wings when it's off the table..

mercer wrote:How are Librarian Dreadnoughts going to deep strike without a Drop Pod? Don't think it can cast wings when it's off the table..

ummm... oops? Well they can move pretty fast to keep up with the razorbacks and wwork out cheaper than the ones he had

rdlb wrote:@ slick
I've been wanting to try that new frag cannon out and since the new model is so awesome I have no choice. Three templates must trash any infantry the turn they come in. Poor Tyranids

I know what you are saying about attack bikes. Our tables here are filled with buildings and such, even vendettas get some obscured saves once in a while. So jumping over terrain is more important to me than the LOS problems. Although I guess with two wounds a dangerous terrain roll isn't the end of the world.

The best thing about the 'shotgun dread' as my local group calls it, is that coming out of a drop pod it will often be able to get rear armor facings on enemy vehicles, and 2 hits needing 4's to glance, and a third shot needing a 5 (not to mention if you sink a couple points into a magna grapple getting a str8 hit too) Ive had it get a decent hit on a Jetbike seer council and wipe it down to 1 man with 1 turn of shooting.

That is probably the most discouraging thing that ever happened to that eldar player...yikes!