Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, so here's a thought I had while posting to another thread.... While I agree the amount of Loyalist SM codices is disproportionate to the traitor CSM codex, I realize nothing will ever be done, at least in the next few years, to rectify this issue. Now there have been statements from some that either place all the SM codices into one unified codex (will never happen), or to make separate codices for the major traitor legions (will also never happen). For me I think a vastly superior solution would be to pair Loyalist and Traitor Legions in similar codices. For example, you would have both Blood Angels and Night Lords in one codex since they are very similar in game play. Of course there is enough variation between the two armies that they are not entirely identical.

As I'm by no means a master of fluff I'm curious as to whether there are consistent pairings available to do such a thing. What other loyalist/traitor pairings would then exist by play style?

Some pairings are possible. One evident one is Black Legion to Ultramarines, Iron Warriors to Iron Hands, and World Eaters to Blood Angels. Others, not so much. You'd be hard pressed to find an equivallent for Death Guard, who have a rather unique playstyle due to the stat modifications the PMs have. Thousand Sons may be able to be paired with Daemonhunters.

Others like Salamanders, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion and Space Wolves dont really have a direct counterpart.

To some extent you can pair up some of the chapters:

Imperial Fists - Iron Warriors. In the fluff both would appear to be intertwined. One being a counter-seige specialist orientated chapter, whereas the other focuses almost exclusively on building castles and fortifcations. Alternatively I'd argue Iron Warriors could be paired with Iron Hands as both seem to have an aesthetic focus on bionics.

Ultramarines - Black Legion. Both are what I'd term the 'generic chapters' of their side and get the most attention in terms of codex space.

Alpha Legion - Raven Guard. I'd argue both legions work tactially different to how space marines should, i.e. they both work behind enemy lines, or behind the scenes so-to-speak.

Thousand Sons seem to be diametrically opposed to Space Wolves due to their interactions in the background. They just diverge in their reactions to change. The Space Wolves, having the canis helix head in a furry path, whereas the Thousand Sons turn to the path of rogue sorcery, and through that, dust.

Blood Angels and World Eaters i'd also pair together as they both have 'the rage' which shows itself in different fashions. On the flip-side Blood Angels could be said to focus on jump-pack infatry, akin to the Night Lords.

I forgot Ravenguard. Nightlords might be better merged with Ravenguard though, given both's emphasis on speedy strikes and gurella tactics rather than espionage and infiltration with the Alpha Legion. Also, I can see Iron Warriors, Iron hands and Imperial Fists all rolled into one book as a three-fer. Iron Warriors post heresy seems to embody traits from both chapters (Siege specialist with an emphasis on bionics). Thousand Sons and Wolves can probably be merged into Codex: Prospero Burns.

You know what, I think I'm gonna write these codexes:

Codex: Prospero Burns
Codex: Brotherhood of Iron
Codex: Creatures of Darkness (Raven and Bat respectively).

Oshunai wrote:To some extent you can pair up some of the chapters:

Aside from being a terrible idea to have both Chaos and Loyalist in the same books, sure you could.

Imperial Fists - Iron Warriors. In the fluff both would appear to be intertwined. One being a counter-seige specialist orientated chapter, whereas the other focuses almost exclusively on building castles and fortifications. Alternatively I'd argue Iron Warriors could be paired with Iron Hands as both seem to have an aesthetic focus on bionics.

Because clearly, a focus on bionics is all it takes to make two people similar.
Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors work best because they're the opposite sides of the same coin. The Iron Warriors' "we can knock down anything you put up" versus the Imperial Fists' "we can't get knocked down" perspective works far better.

Ultramarines - Black Legion. Both are what I'd term the 'generic chapters' of their side and get the most attention in terms of codex space.

I would argue more because they're the more "tactical" of the Astartes Chapters. They've always both been the lynchpins bringing together the various Chapters and serving as the mediators amongst their more diametrically opposed brothers.

Alpha Legion - Raven Guard. I'd argue both legions work tactically different to how space marines should, i.e. they both work behind enemy lines, or behind the scenes so-to-speak.

I would do Alpha Legion/Dark Angels myself. They both are constantly on the move, and start by ingratiating themselves at the local level before finally revealing themselves and letting their full motives become known.

Thousand Sons seem to be diametrically opposed to Space Wolves due to their interactions in the background. They just diverge in their reactions to change. The Space Wolves, having the canis helix head in a furry path, whereas the Thousand Sons turn to the path of rogue sorcery, and through that, dust.

I would do the Space Wolves/World Eaters here, not Thousand Sons/Space Wolves.
With Space Wolves/World Eaters--you've got the controlled savagery of the Wolves against the sheer unmatchable "let them off the leash and get the hell out of the way" brutality of the World Eaters.
Opposite sides of the same coin, again.

Thousand Sons I would pair with the Iron Hands. They are the perfect diametric response. You've got the inhuman aspect of the Thousand Sons, which was forced upon them through unmatchable sorcery paired with the 'Flesh is weak' view of the Iron Hands, which is done willingly with technology.

Blood Angels and World Eaters i'd also pair together as they both have 'the rage' which shows itself in different fashions. On the flip-side Blood Angels could be said to focus on jump-pack infantry, akin to the Night Lords.

Blood Angels would be, in my pairings, paired with the Emperor's Children. They're both finesse fighters, which occasionally exhibit oddities(i.e. the Blood Angels' "Black Rage", which causes them to force themselves into combat to seek their fates, and the Emperor's Children who now fight simply for the thrill of it) that put them beyond the norm.

Night Lords would be paired with Raven Guard. The Night Lords emphasize a brutal smash and grab style of guerilla warfare, while the Raven Guard are all about speed and whittling their opponents down before engaging in one final crushing blow.

Salamanders would be paired with Death Guard, for pretty obvious reasons I think. The sheer stubborn and implacable nature of the Salamanders and their reliance on flame weaponry would go nicely with the Death Guards' "unkillable" idea and open the door for things like the Plague Sprayers.

World Eaters could go with either DC Blood Angels or Black Templars. The Former because of the blind rage and bloodlust common to both. The latter because the Black Templars abhors Psykers and also have a sort of rage (Zeal Movement) that World Eaters would be susceptable to. Emperor's Children, however, doesnt have as much in common with the Blood Angels as the World Eaters do. While the theme of finess does show, Blood Angels are more known for their Black Rage rather than finess. Emp Children are more like elite marines, with improved weaponry compared to normal marines as well as higher initiative, with equally higher cost.

Black Templars are not a first founding Chapter, thus don't get a pairing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:World Eaters could go with either DC Blood Angels or Black Templars.

"DC Blood Angels" is not a specialized formation. It's something incorporated into the Chapter as a whole.

The Former because of the blind rage and bloodlust common to both.

Wat? The Blood Angels don't have "blind rage" or "bloodlust". It's not really a 'distinguishing trait' of the Chapter.
That's a distinguishing trait of the Black Rage. It's something that would be incorporated into their specialist troops, not the standard Marines.

The latter because the Black Templars abhors Psykers and also have a sort of rage (Zeal Movement) that World Eaters would be susceptable to.

Again: wat? The Black Templars, while "abhorring psykers" are also, as I mentioned, not a Founding Chapter. They came about after, and really are just a splinter of the Imperial Fists. If anything, they should be in with their parent Chapter.

Emperor's Children, however, doesn't have as much in common with the Blood Angels as the World Eaters do. While the theme of finesse does show, Blood Angels are more known for their Black Rage rather than finesse.

Again...wat?
The Blood Angels, with their "tragic hero" and a few uniquely Blood Angels things(the Death Company being the biggest part, but not the most defining part. The Sanguinary Guard/Priests are far more defining of the Sons of Sanguinius) have far more in common with the Emperor's Children than the mad bloodlust of the World Eaters.

Emp Children are more like elite marines, with improved weaponry compared to normal marines as well as higher initiative, with equally higher cost.

Wrong, wrong wrong. This is Noise Marines who would be the "elite" of the Emperor's Children.

Kanluwen wrote:Black Templars are not a first founding Chapter, thus don't get a pairing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:World Eaters could go with either DC Blood Angels or Black Templars.

"DC Blood Angels" is not a specialized formation. It's something incorporated into the Chapter as a whole.

The Former because of the blind rage and bloodlust common to both.

Wat? The Blood Angels don't have "blind rage" or "bloodlust". It's not really a 'distinguishing trait' of the Chapter.
That's a distinguishing trait of the Black Rage. It's something that would be incorporated into their specialist troops, not the standard Marines.

The latter because the Black Templars abhors Psykers and also have a sort of rage (Zeal Movement) that World Eaters would be susceptable to.

Again: wat? The Black Templars, while "abhorring psykers" are also, as I mentioned, not a Founding Chapter. They came about after, and really are just a splinter of the Imperial Fists. If anything, they should be in with their parent Chapter.

Emperor's Children, however, doesn't have as much in common with the Blood Angels as the World Eaters do. While the theme of finesse does show, Blood Angels are more known for their Black Rage rather than finesse.

Again...wat?
The Blood Angels, with their "tragic hero" and a few uniquely Blood Angels things(the Death Company being the biggest part, but not the most defining part. The Sanguinary Guard/Priests are far more defining of the Sons of Sanguinius) have far more in common with the Emperor's Children than the mad bloodlust of the World Eaters.

Emp Children are more like elite marines, with improved weaponry compared to normal marines as well as higher initiative, with equally higher cost.

Wrong, wrong wrong. This is Noise Marines who would be the "elite" of the Emperor's Children.

1.) DCs and Furiosos were the halmarks of a Blood Angels force and largely their only unique trait prior to the new codex, where they shoehorned a bunch of "wtf" in. Plus it's also a legal build now, so that analogy is quite valid.
2.) You took that sentence out of context. I was refering to the DCs directly in that one. I remember having another argument with you before, taking things out of context does not make you right. It was to make a point about how further similar World Eaters and the DC were, hence why "DC Blood Angels" would be a good counterpart to World Eaters
3.) We're talking about combined codexes. We dont need to give ANOTHER SM chapter a new dex because someone isnt happy about a second founding chapter getting one. At least the BT have distinction from the Vanilla Marines. All Imp Fists get is Stubborn.
4.) Pre-heresy the Blood Angels would have similar traits with the Emperor's Children. Post Heresy Traitor Legion Emp Children are almost (if not completely) made up of exclusively Noise Marines. Noise Marines, again, have nothing in common with BA's Playstyle nor their story. They're drug addicts who'd do anything for pleasure. There is little the Sons of Sanguinus Post heresy would have in common with them.

Personally I can see the points you are trying to make, but really those playstyles do not line up as well as the ones others (and me) have listed. Other ones simply dont feel right in the same book. Plague Marines have enormous staying power due to higher toughness and feel no pain, there is no other SM Chapter/legion that's like this. Sure Salamanders might have alot of template weapons, but to pair them with Death Guard would mean the latter being exclusive bile-spewers. Salamanders might actually be a more fitting combo for Emperor's Children, given how they have Master Crafted items and superior template weaponry, but it's still a longshot.

And you do not need to go "Wat?" and "Wrong wrong wrong" at every single one of my comments. You've been doing that alot (to me at least) lately and it's getting rather offensive. And if you must argue, please dont take things out of context (again).

@ Kanluwen: I think what the OP really meant in his post is: what Loyalist marine codices work best for Chaos Space marine chapters that cannot be accurately represented in the current CSM codex?

so it's not so much about fluff as it is rules.

Blood Angels Codex is good for Night Lords and World Eaters
Then again, Space Wolves is also good for World Eaters.

Iron Warriors are best done with the Vanilla marines codex (for all it's nice Heavy Support)

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

1.) DCs and Furiosos were the hallmarks of a Blood Angels force and largely their only unique trait prior to the new codex, where they shoehorned a bunch of "wtf" in. Plus it's also a legal build now, so that analogy is quite valid.

Actually, a lot of that "wtf" was in prior to the new Codex. The only definitively new things in there are the Sanguinor, the Stormraven, and the Librarian Dreadnoughts(which are ehhh at best. They've been mentioned before in the background as a rarity).

2.) You took that sentence out of context. I was referring to the DCs directly in that one. I remember having another argument with you before, taking things out of context does not make you right. It was to make a point about how further similar World Eaters and the DC were, hence why "DC Blood Angels" would be a good counterpart to World Eaters

What did I take out of context? You were using it as an example of how Blood Angels and World Eaters are similar. But I cut it down specifically to point out how the Death Company is not a defining factor of the Blood Angels as a whole. The Death Company is a very specific unit that operates within the whole of the Blood Angels. It's a "signature unit", much like Berzerkers are a signature unit of the World Eaters.

It's absurd to believe that the entirety of the World Eaters have become madmen who run into battle waving sharp things. Even during the Horus Heresy, when they were first beginning to devote themselves to Khorne, they maintained Tactical Squads.

3.) We're talking about combined codexes. We don't need to give ANOTHER SM chapter a new dex because someone isnt happy about a second founding chapter getting one. At least the BT have distinction from the Vanilla Marines. All Imp Fists get is Stubborn.

Which is why having the Imperial Fists and a few of their Successors(several of which are divergencies like the Black Templars) within a book about the Imperial Fists/ Iron Warriors pairing would actually work work.
You could easily have the "Sons of Sigismund" being a sublist within the greater whole of the Imperial Fists.

4.) Pre-heresy the Blood Angels would have similar traits with the Emperor's Children. Post Heresy Traitor Legion Emp Children are almost (if not completely) made up of exclusively Noise Marines. Noise Marines, again, have nothing in common with BA's Playstyle nor their story. They're drug addicts who'd do anything for pleasure. There is little the Sons of Sanguinus Post heresy would have in common with them.

Where do you get that from?
Noise Marines are, again, a signature unit of the Emperor's Children.
They're the Chosen of Slaanesh, given over wholly to the Pleasure Prince.
You've still got people like Fabius Bile, the mad Apothecary, and Lucius, the peerless blade, within the Emperor's Children's rank.

It's absurd to, again, believe that every single member is fully given over to Slaanesh like the Noise Marines are.

Personally I can see the points you are trying to make, but really those playstyles do not line up as well as the ones others (and me) have listed. Other ones simply dont feel right in the same book. Plague Marines have enormous staying power due to higher toughness and feel no pain, there is no other SM Chapter/legion that's like this. Sure Salamanders might have alot of template weapons, but to pair them with Death Guard would mean the latter being exclusive bile-spewers. Salamanders might actually be a more fitting combo for Emperor's Children, given how they have Master Crafted items and superior template weaponry, but it's still a longshot.

How does Salamanders having "a lot of template weapons" make them a fitting combo for Emperor's Children?

And if we're getting into Master-Crafted items: Plague Knives, Death's Heads, Plague Zombies(which actually are something that is just a "side-effect" of the Death Guard who are fully given over to Nurgle like Typhus the Herald, Mortarion and their ilk being in the midst of the dead. The energies that sustain the Death Guard 'leak out' and reanimate the dead within their vicinities), things like that for the Death Guard will easily add another more interesting facet to the Death Guard.

And if you must argue, please don't take things out of context (again).

Then perhaps you should consider giving a better context to work from.

Kanluwen wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

1.) DCs and Furiosos were the hallmarks of a Blood Angels force and largely their only unique trait prior to the new codex, where they shoehorned a bunch of "wtf" in. Plus it's also a legal build now, so that analogy is quite valid.

Actually, a lot of that "wtf" was in prior to the new Codex. The only definitively new things in there are the Sanguinor, the Stormraven, and the Librarian Dreadnoughts(which are ehhh at best. They've been mentioned before in the background as a rarity).

2.) You took that sentence out of context. I was referring to the DCs directly in that one. I remember having another argument with you before, taking things out of context does not make you right. It was to make a point about how further similar World Eaters and the DC were, hence why "DC Blood Angels" would be a good counterpart to World Eaters

What did I take out of context? You were using it as an example of how Blood Angels and World Eaters are similar. But I cut it down specifically to point out how the Death Company is not a defining factor of the Blood Angels as a whole. The Death Company is a very specific unit that operates within the whole of the Blood Angels. It's a "signature unit", much like Berzerkers are a signature unit of the World Eaters.

It's absurd to believe that the entirety of the World Eaters have become madmen who run into battle waving sharp things. Even during the Horus Heresy, when they were first beginning to devote themselves to Khorne, they maintained Tactical Squads.

3.) We're talking about combined codexes. We don't need to give ANOTHER SM chapter a new dex because someone isnt happy about a second founding chapter getting one. At least the BT have distinction from the Vanilla Marines. All Imp Fists get is Stubborn.

Which is why having the Imperial Fists and a few of their Successors(several of which are divergencies like the Black Templars) within a book about the Imperial Fists/ Iron Warriors pairing would actually work work.
You could easily have the "Sons of Sigismund" being a sublist within the greater whole of the Imperial Fists.

4.) Pre-heresy the Blood Angels would have similar traits with the Emperor's Children. Post Heresy Traitor Legion Emp Children are almost (if not completely) made up of exclusively Noise Marines. Noise Marines, again, have nothing in common with BA's Playstyle nor their story. They're drug addicts who'd do anything for pleasure. There is little the Sons of Sanguinus Post heresy would have in common with them.

Where do you get that from?
Noise Marines are, again, a signature unit of the Emperor's Children.
They're the Chosen of Slaanesh, given over wholly to the Pleasure Prince.
You've still got people like Fabius Bile, the mad Apothecary, and Lucius, the peerless blade, within the Emperor's Children's rank.

It's absurd to, again, believe that every single member is fully given over to Slaanesh like the Noise Marines are.

Personally I can see the points you are trying to make, but really those playstyles do not line up as well as the ones others (and me) have listed. Other ones simply dont feel right in the same book. Plague Marines have enormous staying power due to higher toughness and feel no pain, there is no other SM Chapter/legion that's like this. Sure Salamanders might have alot of template weapons, but to pair them with Death Guard would mean the latter being exclusive bile-spewers. Salamanders might actually be a more fitting combo for Emperor's Children, given how they have Master Crafted items and superior template weaponry, but it's still a longshot.

How does Salamanders having "a lot of template weapons" make them a fitting combo for Emperor's Children?

And if we're getting into Master-Crafted items: Plague Knives, Death's Heads, Plague Zombies(which actually are something that is just a "side-effect" of the Death Guard who are fully given over to Nurgle like Typhus the Herald, Mortarion and their ilk being in the midst of the dead. The energies that sustain the Death Guard 'leak out' and reanimate the dead within their vicinities), things like that for the Death Guard will easily add another more interesting facet to the Death Guard.

And if you must argue, please don't take things out of context (again).

Then perhaps you should consider giving a better context to work from.

Pre-heresy World Eaters were lobotomized and had the part of their brains governing fear removed, as per the tradition Angron carried over from his days as a Gladiator from the world he crash landed on. Also, I do not remember Sanguinary Guard being part of the BA Codex prior to the new one, nor deepstriking land raiders.

As for the Imperial Fist/Black Templars one, I honestly dont want to see a book about either tbh, but if one must be made, Black Templars would be the better choice, as they do not cling to Codex Astartes as much as the Imperial Fists do. Going on that train of thought, Black Templars have much more in common with World Eaters, ergo just as fitting.

On the subject of Emperor's children, do take note that I didnt say "a lot of template weapons". I said "Superior Template weapons", i.e the Doom Siren. In addition, that is not the only thing connecting them to the Emperor's Children, but also the fact that they have master crafted weapons, which (again) would be very fluffy and functional within a Emp Children Force. Also, read this: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Children#Post-Heresy_2 . Quite Frankly even in 3.5, Emperor's Children Armies had to be completely made up of Noise Marines as well, so it's rather befitting that Noise Marines should be seen as synonomous with Emperor's Children. In addition, you should double check your facts. Lucius is, to all intents and purposes, a Noise Marine as well (higher initiative and Doom Siren. He wields a piece of Sonic Weaponry and is faster than the normal counterpart, both the only traits differentiating a noise marine from a normal marine) while Bile broke off from the Emperor's Children not long after the heresy to pursue his own goals.

Also, maybe instead of criticizing my ability to give context, maybe you should learn to read from left to right, as well as every single word and not just every other word.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Pre-heresy World Eaters were lobotomized and had the part of their brains governing fear removed, as per the tradition Angron carried over from his days as a Gladiator from the world he crash landed on. Also, I do not remember Sanguinary Guard being part of the BA Codex prior to the new one, nor deepstriking land raiders.

Sanguinary Guard were part of the BA Codex, under the "Honor Guard" entry.

And lobotomizing the "part of their brains governing fear" does not equate "mindless berzerkers".

As for the Imperial Fist/Black Templars one, I honestly dont want to see a book about either tbh, but if one must be made, Black Templars would be the better choice, as they do not cling to Codex Astartes as much as the Imperial Fists do. Going on that train of thought, Black Templars have much more in common with World Eaters, ergo just as fitting.

Except the Black Templars only have their preference to fight in close and not use psykers as things in common with World Eaters.
If that's how we're basing things for the pairings, then pretty much everything could go with everything else.

On the subject of Emperor's children, do take note that I didnt say "a lot of template weapons". I said "Superior Template weapons", i.e the Doom Siren. In addition, that is not the only thing connecting them to the Emperor's Children, but also the fact that they have master crafted weapons, which (again) would be very fluffy and functional within a Emp Children Force.

Where do you see the Emperor's Children having a lot of master-crafted weapons? I've seen that they have a few, but they're no Iron Warriors or Death Guard, who lovingly craft each of the "unique" weapons they use. Those are far better ways of mirroring them up against the Salamanders, who--much like those two examples--craft their weapons themselves.

Also, read this: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Children#Post-Heresy_2 . Quite Frankly even in 3.5, Emperor's Children Armies had to be completely made up of Noise Marines as well, so it's rather befitting that Noise Marines should be seen as synonomous with Emperor's Children.

You do understand what "signature unit" means, right?
I'm not arguing that the Noise Marines shouldn't "be seen as synonomous with Emperor's Children". Saying they're a signature unit should tell you that.

In addition, you should double check your facts. Lucius is, to all intents and purposes, a Noise Marine as well (higher initiative and Doom Siren. He wields a piece of Sonic Weaponry and is faster than the normal counterpart, both the only traits differentiating a noise marine from a normal marine)

And? Dante used an inferno pistol, it doesn't make him an Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus now does it?
Also:
Lucius' higher initiative doesn't necessarily come exclusively from combat drugs or the other reasons you see for a lot of the Slaaneshi devoted Emperor's Children though. He was prior to the Heresy, one of the best swordsmen in the entirety of the Imperium. His hubris in that fact is actually the whole reason that he was 'gifted' his unique talent by Slaanesh.

while Bile broke off from the Emperor's Children not long after the heresy to pursue his own goals.

And? He still has followers within the Emperor's Children, and pimps out his services as an alchemical madman to the highest bidder.

You're failing to, I think, see the point of the mirrors that I listed.
I'm not interested in gameplay. I'm not even interested in making ones that make you happy.

I listed what makes the most sense to me from being a background junky and not looking at everything as archetypes or "how can I genericize this best?".

Lucius does, however, use sonic weapons, which is what gives the Noise Marines their name. In addition he also has the mark of slaanesh and is also the prince of excess's chosen champion. That more than qualifies him as a Noise Marine. As well, the Master Crafted part came from your own reasoning, in that Emp Children would fight with some form of finess.

Bile does indeed still have ties to the Emperor's Children, and to the Black Legion, Thousand Sons, Red Corsairs, and to even a few World Eater Warbands. His ties to the Emperor's Children is only unique in the fact that he used to be one of them. In fact, going by 3.5 rules, he wasnt even ALLOWED in an Emperor's Children army, in part due to the fact that he does not possess a Mark of Slaanesh.

And considering that there still is a "Honor Guard' unit in the BA list, I do not consider Sanguinary Guard to have existed prior to the book.

And indeed I do decide to pair World Eaters with Black Templar solely because they fight in close quarters and do not use psykers, because that's what the OP asked for: "What other loyalist/traitor pairings would then exist by play style?"

Also, Dante's Pistol was originally named the Perdition Pistol and originally had longer range than the Inferno Pistols used by the Inquisition. It also vastly differed in design (the Inferno Pistol is basically a torch on a hand gun. Dante's Pistol is more akin to a miniature Meltagun).

He also asked regarding fluff, which is what I consider the far more important aspect.

And which, quite frankly, makes far more sense than lumping every sword wielder in with others.

And by the by?

The World Eaters with their berzerker playstyle does not work with the Black Templars' playstyle(and even the background of both).

Both of them have the goal of getting into close combat, sure.
But whereas the World Eaters go forward heedless of the danger because of mindless bloodlust--the Black Templars don't.

Black Templars are far more akin to the Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle, as they go forward and rely on well-trained and well-practiced close order drills once they get into close combat. Not mindless flailing about, heedless of who you're hitting.

Rightous Zeal Rule. It even says that the BTs would charge forwards where more level headed marines would stay back or retreat.

Personally I do consider both fluff and gameplay. However lumping the Flame based Salamanders with the Resiliant Plague Marines on little more than "template weapons" and their fluff "implacable" nature is not that much better (or indeed as good) as World Eaters with Black Templars. At least the latter matches in gameplay, if not fluff. I wont speak for the others, but Black Templars and Blood Angels (especially the Blood Angels) match up with the World Eaters because both are close combat oriented armies, are more direct assault than other ones (Space Wolves are more into defending and counter-assaults due to their loadout. Same with Raven Guard, who needs to make more strategic assaults rather than a head on charge). BTs are known for their Rightous Zeal charges, both in fluff and in the rules, which is not too dissimilar to that of the World Eater's rampages. Blood Angels under the influence of the Red Thirst and Black Rage, two of their Chapter Traits mind you, are also prone to such fits of bloodlust.

Blood Angels would fit with Pre-Heresy Emperor's Children, as they have almost identical organisation to them. However Post Heresy the Emperor's Children rely on Sonic Weaponry and their bread-and-butter Noise Marines, which are nothing like the Blood Angels now. They're a cadre of fast marines who attack with variable weapons that can change depending on whether or not they stood still, and do equally good in both ranged and close quarter combat. Emperor's Children are also deprived individuals, something that the more noble Blood Angels would never stoop to.

Since there's no direct connection between the Thousand Sons and any existing Loyalist Legion Marines, they really should be paired with Space Wolves in a Campaign-type book. In this way, alot more can be concentrated on the fluff of their rivalry and of the burning of Prospero, one crutial event in that of the Horus Heresy. The opposing forces would not allow anyone to switch over easly, but would make for both a fluffy and fun to play book.

And as you said, that's what YOU consider most important. However that doesnt give you right to talk down about what I consider is right, which is a balance between gameplay, fluff and representation. In doing so I do admit I sacrifice some fluff for gameplay and representation, but it's what I consider important.

Also quite frankly I think calling lucius a not-noise marine is the funniest thing I've heard all day.

Anyways it's been interesting, but I think we've ranted long enough as it is. We've prettymuch proved why they havent done a complimation Codex, since there would be so much shitstorm going down, like this one.

I think Ultramaines' equivalent would be black legion or maybe word bearers, since both have large numbers and have no special fighting style.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Rightous Zeal Rule. It even says that the BTs would charge forwards where more level headed marines would stay back or retreat.

Personally I do consider both fluff and gameplay. However lumping the Flame based Salamanders with the Resiliant Plague Marines on little more than "template weapons" and their fluff "implacable" nature is not that much better (or indeed as good) as World Eaters with Black Templars. At least the latter matches in gameplay, if not fluff.

Except you're way oversimplifying things.

Death Guard(NOT PLAGUE MARINES. Stop focusing on that, because it's wrong. Plague Marines are a specific unit, NOT AN ENTIRE ARMY. If you're going to complain about being "quoted out of context", at least try to start understanding the context that I'm working with better) and Salamanders were both infamous for their implacable(there's that word again...) nature, wherein they'd advance into enemy fire using well-drilled fire discipline and using special weapons(flamers, meltaguns, and plasmaguns) to deal with enemy strongpoints.

Both of those forces, historically, never really had much in the way of heavy weapons. They relied on short-range special weapons and Terminator equipped troops to deal with large and dangerous targets.

I wont speak for the others, but Black Templars and Blood Angels (especially the Blood Angels) match up with the World Eaters because both are close combat oriented armies, are more direct assault than other ones (Space Wolves are more into defending and counter-assaults due to their loadout. Same with Raven Guard, who needs to make more strategic assaults rather than a head on charge).

Raven Guard actually rarely engage in assaults. They'd rather strike from afar and withdraw before the target ever knows they were there. They only engage in assaults when it suits their purposes.
The problem is that kind of thing is something you actually have to read about. The fluff for the armies does not stop at the Codex.

BTs are known for their Rightous Zeal charges, both in fluff and in the rules, which is not too dissimilar to that of the World Eater's rampages. Blood Angels under the influence of the Red Thirst and Black Rage, two of their Chapter Traits mind you, are also prone to such fits of bloodlust.

Did you know the Black Templars also have created anti-psyker rounds for their bolters?
Or that they've also got, as a Chapter Relic, a trio of sets of Artificer Armor that are layered with hexagrammic wards to block psyker attacks and incorporates a blessed power sword within the vambrace of their left arm?

Blood Angels would fit with Pre-Heresy Emperor's Children, as they have almost identical organisation to them. However Post Heresy the Emperor's Children rely on Sonic Weaponry and their bread-and-butter Noise Marines, which are nothing like the Blood Angels now. They're a cadre of fast marines who attack with variable weapons that can change depending on whether or not they stood still, and do equally good in both ranged and close quarter combat. Emperor's Children are also deprived individuals, something that the more noble Blood Angels would never stoop to.

Again: Who says the Emperor's Children rely exclusively on Sonic Weaponry?
It's a signature weapon.
Just like plasma for Dark Angels or flame-weaponry for the Salamanders.

Anyways:
Noise Marines are not exclusive to the Emperor's Children. They're exclusive to Slaaneshi Cults.
The point isn't to fit in the exact mirrors together. It's to portray two sides of the same coin. You've got the Blood Angels who have units that charge, heedless of the consequences, into the enemy to exact vengeance for Sanguinius.
And then...you've got the Emperor's Children, who have a ranged unit as their signature, who hang back and put constant

Since there's no direct connection between the Thousand Sons and any existing Loyalist Legion Marines, they really should be paired with Space Wolves in a Campaign-type book. In this way, alot more can be concentrated on the fluff of their rivalry and of the burning of Prospero, one crucial event in that of the Horus Heresy. The opposing forces would not allow anyone to switch over easily, but would make for both a fluffy and fun to play book.

Really?

Funny. Because the Thousand Sons actually have a fantastic connection to the Iron Hands. They both, again, utilize unique formations(Thousand Sons' "Tactical Squads", for example, always feature a Sorcerer to maintain the Rubric for his brothers. Iron Hands' "Tactical Squads" are led by an Iron Father, who commonly is so insanely modified with various bionics that he makes the Thousand Sons' battle-brothers look human) and have various signature things that would work out fantastically. Thousand Sons having Sorcerer Thralls, Iron Hands having Servitors for the Iron Fathers, etc would be a great way to distinguish them from their standardized brothers.

And as you said, that's what YOU consider most important. However that doesnt give you right to talk down about what I consider is right, which is a balance between gameplay, fluff and representation. In doing so I do admit I sacrifice some fluff for gameplay and representation, but it's what I consider important.

If you felt I talked down to you, sorry. Wasn't my intention.

And frankly, I could care less about gameplay or representation.

You know why?
Representation is skewed beyond belief as it is. It's never been based upon what people actually want or like. It's based upon what wins.

Also quite frankly I think calling Lucius a not-noise marine is the funniest thing I've heard all day.

Well, considering he's not a Noise Marine--I don't know why.
Noise Marines do things for the auditory overload and the pleasure associated with it.
Lucius does things for just the pleasure associated with his dueling.

Anyways it's been interesting, but I think we've ranted long enough as it is. We've pretty much proved why they haven't done a compilation Codex, since there would be so much gakstorm going down, like this one.

Probably part of it. Plus, it's just a bad idea. Much like the "One Space Marines Codex" idea--it ends up with a feeling of waste on the owner's part.

lunarman wrote:@ Kanluwen: I think what the OP really meant in his post is: what Loyalist marine codices work best for Chaos Space marine chapters that cannot be accurately represented in the current CSM codex?

so it's not so much about fluff as it is rules.

Blood Angels Codex is good for Night Lords and World Eaters
Then again, Space Wolves is also good for World Eaters.

Iron Warriors are best done with the Vanilla marines codex (for all it's nice Heavy Support)

The discussion that is ongoing is definitely what I wanted to see as my own knowledge of the Legions and Founding Chapters is serious lacking. I also am genuinely curious to see how even rules wise these similar armies would play out. So fluff and rules are both equally important in adequately representing two opposed armies with similar fluff and play style. I'm really overwhelmed by the knowledge shown and I appreciate the input on this.