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Played a game vs. Empire last Monday, and while I find it hard to believe that I’ve not faced them in 8th, this must be the first time I’ve gone up against them at such a high points level, and with my rat-things. A lot of their abilities are pretty shocking to me - dispel dice generation by warrior priests, auto-flanking by detachments, mortars that don’t cost 150 points, stank with its T10 W10 with 1+ armor and attaks that hit as impacts, etc - and I certainly let my opponent know all about my displeasure with these 7th edition nuggets in 8th edition But to the game.
Certainly not an abusive list by any stretch of the imagination, and it’s actually playing a combined arms, multiple units backed up with guns and magic game that my own skaven play, which ought to make for a really tactically rewarding game. We’ll see if I rose to the occasion …
Wizard Lord - fireball, fire cloak, piercing bolts, flame cage Wizard - net, timewarp Arch-Lector - half a dozen bounds Priest - half a dozen bounds (+3 dispel dice each phase)
As a side note, FIRE is particularly effective against my skaven build, with its reliance upon skirmishers, regen-ing monsters and deep units, in a way that SHADOW & LIFE (the lores I’ve played against for months) are not. So whenever I come up against it a part of me gets really skittish and wants to hide in a dark corner somewhere, far away from the burning …
TERRAIN & DEPLOYMENT
I rolled up an impressive 10 pieces of mundane terrain - 1 wall, 2 marshes, 2 hills, 2 woods, 3 buildings - and we scattered them around. We rolled up a Battleline, so got right to it:
Empire: level 2 in left handgunners, level 4 + arch-lector in the bigger swords, BSB + priest in the smaller swords. Skaven: scroll engineer in clanrats 1, BSB + general breaker in clanrats 2, condenser engineer + LT breaker in clanrats 3 (along with the hidden assassin).
The pisoliers vanguard forward, and then, continuing a very healthy trend of mine, I win first and take it.
(The following report might seem a little off at times - like the ratling guns apparently do very little - and this is because with so many units, I really can’t remember what everything did. I’ve tried to recreate the battle as much as I can, but there are still some units that, while I remember their ultimate fate, I couldn’t quite figure out how they got there.)
BATTLE Turn 1
The hellpit starts things off with a 6-6-6 roll for movement … and the misfire sends him randomly flying in the enemy general’s direction Globes get into position to intercept the stank, and the blocks all advance at a good clip. Magic sees an IF scorch into the spearmen detachment decimate them and, without the BSB’s reroll, send them fleeing off the board - the miscast pops two clanrats in base with the engineer. The ratling guns in range of the vanguarded pisoliers rev up and remove the horsemen, and the WLC misfires but rolls a 6 to stay in it.
The Empire line responds by sending the stank forward. Magic nets the scorch engineer’s clanrats, and cannon, hellblaster and handgunners put a couple wounds on the hellpit. Then the mortar opens up on the general breaker’s bus, hits 30 of them (!) and blows about half of the unit away. My jaw drops but my general keeps his gak together. Also, a slave was handgunnered.
Turn 2
The rat turn begins fortuitously, with both gutter teams arriving (at mortar + hellblaster respectively) and the hellpit squirming into the lector and his swordsmen. My opponent asks if the handgunner detachment would get to stand and shoot against the abomination, and in the name of hellpit brokenness I let him take the shot, perhaps taking another wound from the beast. The globes spring out to hurl some anti-armor death into the stank, and the breakers command their blocks to continue forward, with ratling guns scampering to maintain 3” ward-range. In magic time, the netted engineer fails his strength test to cast either of his spells (1-2 clanrats die as a result), and the other engineer’s lightning is stopped. The globes miss or don’t wound the stank, and the WLC hits the enemy cannon (@ S10) but rolls a 1 to wound it. Gutter runner stars are inconsequential.
In combat land, the hellpit mangles 8 total swordsmen, perhaps taking a wound back, but the puny men hold.
Minimal mobilization again from the Empire, with greatswords advancing, joined by the light level 2, and the stank overcooking its boiler on an unlucky 6. Magic puts up timewarp on the greatswords (and probably something else too). In the gun phase, the hellblaster swivels and pastes one gutter runner, misfiring on its second barrel. The cannon tags my bonebreaker general, and for the first time ever I get to see if the Internet is right and a monstrous cav general is indeed sniper bait: 2+ charm shield rolls a 1 (!), 4+ ward rolls a 3 (!!), and my opponent’s D6 wounds comes up 2 (!!!), leaving the big brute stunned but alive. And then the mortar mashes his unit further into goo, reducing them to about 7 clanrats + characters. Once again, Breaker One smacks the panic out of his dudes.
In cuddle town, the hellpit feeds on a couple men (but doesn’t wound the ward-less lector!), maybe takes a wound but holds.
Turn 3
The gutters charge their artillery targets … and then the censer bearers slip their leashes and charge things I don’t want them to, careening into the stank on one hand* and the ASFing greatswords on the other. Elsewise the globadiers abandon their stank target, since the censers were busy slobbering all over it, the general breaker & BSB bail out of their crippled escort and take up the engineer’s clanrats, and LT leads his clanrats through the woods to get at some squishy humans. (I realized at the time that this wasn’t the best position, exposing a medium-ish flank charge to the lector’s swords on top of the front/flank from the other swords and their spears, but I was willing to gamble on the hellpit holding another turn or perhaps going ape and devouring everything.)
Magic does nothing (Empire dispel dice orgy :’(), and shooting sees the WLC hit the cannon again (@ S8) but roll a 1 to wound again. Combat is a mixed bag: both gutters flip over their machines, with the mortar gutters overrunning to pester the handgunners and the blaster gutters running into the engineer (who I definitely forgot was separate like that, would have lined things up a bit better!). The gutters against the stank manage 0 wounds with their 16 auto-hits, and the gutters against the greatswords gas out the champion and have enough remaining @ their I3 to drop the light wizard, before being hewn down. Annnd the hellpit has another gentle turn, slapping around enough swordsmen to stay in the game one more turn, with about 1 wound left.
*Mistake 1 - Why the hell didn’t those censers, who were never going to want to take on the stank, not get their free reforming selves East, where they could do some good, or at least benefit from the general and BSB’s frenzy-suppressing abilities? Guh.
So much movement: handgunners reform to take the gutters on, greatswords advance to tempt a skaven unit to cross the marsh of difficult terrain death, and the other swords-n-spears jocky a bit to really screw the LT’s bus over next turn. Magic throws up a flame cage (probably IF) on LT’s clanrats, and suddenly I realize how boned those guys are … Shooting is inconsequential, with the cannon overshooting my general, but combat is decidedly better. The stank revs up and grinds the censers into jelly, panicing the globes nearby, and the hellpit is finally taken down by the arch-lector, though the monster avalanches the unit, exacting a heavy toll (8+ dead) in its death throes. And then I get to roll on the a-bomb’s death chart for the first time in many months (usually he gets run down or burnt), and 3 rat swarms spill out! Result! Also, the engineer shockingly takes 0-1 wounds, keeping the cannon in the game!
[u[Turn 4[/u]
With my blood up, I send in some charges that didn’t necessarily need to happen: gutters into the handgunners, slaves into the greatswords (1 of 33 dead to the marsh, nice), rat swarms into the detachment gunners*. I debate about charging LT and his rats - or even just LT - through the flame cage, but 32 S4 hits would, if not utterly cripple the unit, certainly remove any hope of out-CR-ing the CR fiend Empire blocks. So they sit there and await their destruction. The globes fail to rally and stop 1” from board edge, and the new uber-bus trundles forward fairly aimlessly. Magic pounds another IF scorch out, crisping 10+ of the lector’s swords, with the miscast doing nothing that mattered. Shooting probably saw ratters shooting something, and the WLC tagged the stank (@ S10) but failed to wound. Hmph.
The gutters vs. handgunners fight resulted in a draw, and this fight would grind on until the end of the game, with one gutter surviving. Likewise the rat swarms began a long protracted pokefest vs. the other gunners, drawing combat. Astoundingly, the other gutters once again fail to kill an old man with a compass, and the slaves drag down just a couple greatswords, losing many but steadfasting.
*Mistake 2 - Why in Khorne’s name didn’t I divert the lector’s swords away from the LT’s flank, a charge that I knew I lined up last turn? As you’ll see, it may not have saved LT anyway, but certainly a missed opportunity and something to keep practicing with. As much as I hate deathstar uber-horde builds (not like this Empire list, more like bullstar or gravestar retardation), the only way I’ll survive them is by diversion. Which means not hurling units into charges just ‘cause.
The LT breaker’s fate is finally sealed, with his bus flanked by the lector’s swords and a spear detachment while charged frontally by BSB + priest swords. Elsewhere the stank once more overcooks its boiler on an unlucky 6, wounding itself again. Magic hardly matters, and shooting results in a second tag on the bonebreaker general. He fails his 4+ ward again, and is splattered. I am much saddened, as are my slaves when they are decimated by a handful of greatswords and have no general to boost their LD with. They explode. The engineer is finally beaten to death by my crack team of ninja artillery assassins, but soon enough it’s time to resolve Bonebreaker 2’s imminent demise. LT beats down a paltry few spearmen, but static CR + dead clanrats sees the rats testing on snakes and being run down. Lame.
Turn 5
Things are certainly looking rough at this point, with no censers, no bonebreakers, no hellpit and not too many rats either … Gutters finally charge the cannon, and my remaining clanrat bus backs up to try to keep a handle on empire flankers flooding in from both sides. Magic once again sees an IF scorch obliterate a swordsmen unit (like, LOTS of them), and the miscast drops all of that engineer’s spells, removing my casting phase. Ratling guns rev up and drop greatswords and various state troops*, and the WLC once again fails to wound the stank (@ S2). In combat, the cannon is flipped over and the swarms / other gutters continue their grinds.
*One ratter is gone on the map, and I thought it had blown up. Now though I think it fled when LT’s bus was wrecked, to rally this phase somewhere in the vicinity of the BSB’s bubble.
The skaven BSB’s boys take the greatswords on one flank and the spear detachment in the other, and a ratter is charged by the empire BSB’s crew. Magic does whatever (he was putting up fire cloak constantly, and I was letting him do it and just dropping it with my power dice), and the stank tries to shoot the WLC but overshoots or something (he thought it had more range than it in fact does). In combat the skaven block holds on steadfast, losing a few rats in the process.
Turn 6
A long painful game lurches to a close, and the skaven start their last turn mostly wanting some points and to stay alive. The shell-shocked remnants of clanrats 2 charges in and helps the last rat swarm run down that pesky handgunner detachment (they do). Through a combination of ratling gun and warp lightning cannon, the original huge block of swordsmen is reduced to just the level 4 and the arch-lector. In fact, a ratling gun unloads 8 shots directly into the wizard lord, but he makes a flurry of 5+ wards and survives the minigun fire! And then the skaven BSB keeps his block in the fight once again.
End game time. The stank overcooks its boiler and takes another wound, and the human BSB’s swords flank on in to the final fight. Magic sees flame cage do little damage, shooting is nil, and fighting is pretty tired at this point. The last gutter shivs the handgunner standard bearer, and somehow the BSB’s clanrats hold.
So, after all that it was pretty clear that the Empire had carried the day, at the very least because all of their lords and the stank were still around, as well as some expensive block fragments (the single greatsword, for example). As I said to my opponent afterwards, I think I’d be a better player if I played Empire more often, as they’re playing such a more involved tactical game than most armies at 2500 points, that requires a lot more foresight when facing. That said, the game wasn’t the usual feel good romp that 8th has usually been for me … but then thinking is a bit harder than helping the HPA smash things with his bag of dice A couple flat out mistakes and some overreaching with Breaker 2 and general aimlessness with Breaker 1 certainly hurt. And for those keeping track of my assassin, note that he never even appeared on the table - he was so hidden that I never revealed him in the big NE brawl. Ah well.
Working on a wee tweak of the list for 2500 point games, by dropping the globes and two gutters to add in a second lightning cannon (!) and a couple more slaves - a bit more bite and a bit less skirmisher micro-management. Also, going to swap out the banner of the under-empire for some magic armor on the BSB, not really feeling him so stripped down defensively.
- Salvage
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/06 06:13:51
I love your Breps and your army lists. As a WoC player, any Skaven list NOT 13thing everything it can with warpstone tokens and power scrolls is a list I like!
For clarification it was 40 swordsmen with a detachment of 10 Handgunners and 20 Halberdiers that got scorched off first turn. The Warrior Priest was in the 17 Greatswords along with the light mage, and it was the mage's miscast that put a wound on himself and the Lector and the WP, enough that the gas killed both the characters in that unit. The other Swordsmen block was 25 with 12 Spears as a detachment. The missing rattling gun got charged and fled by those spears after the LT Bonebreaker's unit broke, that is why it was fleeing. I also concur that the 100 or so 5+ ward saves that my Wizard Lord made was pretty ridiculous as well as you failing the Charm shield on that first cannonball. All in all a bloody game and also a game of feeb combats, 10 handgunners vs. 3 rat swarms, a scrappy Engineer vs. Gutter runners, and then the 3 round epic Gutters vs. 14 handgunners with banner that ended in a draw every round . It is always cool to see your write ups of the games that we have played, anytime you want I can crack out the Empire again to have another go.
Ahhhhh thanks for the clarification, and I'm sure there are various other things I've rewritten to fill the gaps in my memory ... You really did straight up out play me this time around, to the point that my Awesome Dice (tm) couldn't dig me out like they usually do. The flame cage really put me in such a predicament with LT - the really impetuous part of me wanted to let your poor dice crisp the unit and get to fighting (and losing) at least on my turns, but the other part who always looks at the high end of (im)probability was imagining 20+ rats burning up and immense sadness in the future. As it turned out, sadness was had in the form of a CR sandwich anyway
Also, I continue to not know what to think about the stank. Certainly keeps its points well when not fighting pit / sun, and the possible impact grinds is fearsome, but as your dice validated, it sure is good at hurting itself and becoming a paper weight.
@ Tfrog - Glad you enjoy 'em! And for the record WoC are one of my least favorite match ups, probably in good part because I don't have the 13th to prop me up. I use Battle Chronicler, an excellent and free program that has just gotten better and better over the last couple years. The inclusion of the automatic movement arrows is really particularly cool.
For the hell of it, here's the revised list for the next batch of games (including 1-2 local RTTs this month):
Since I started this army it's been a constant process of weeding out the things that irritate me, getting more of things that I enjoy, and building in redundancy for things that are particularly useful but prone to 'excessive skaven-ness' (i.e. blowing up). Really, this is just another step down that path, with fewer incompetent gutters, more commando slaves and more laser cannon. The globies will be lamented, but now they can party with the 15 other painted globadiers in my closet
- Salvage
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/06 17:10:27
Good report! It really was a neat combined arms sort of battle, as promised.
I am a little confused as to why you kept shooting the WLC at the Stank. I don't remember the wounds on the thing off the top of my head, but wouldn't you have to be really lucky to manage to kill it even in 2-3 shots since at best you need 4+ to wound at best? I was thinking you should have just tried to wreck blocks with it to get them below steadfast when your ratters finally faced them. I am probably wrong, but for some reason the Stank always reads like 4th edition Land Raiders: Ignore it as it won't hurt you much, and accept you won't get the points.
Great read as always. Every Batrep writer should have an advanced degree in English!
Another great report Salvage. The Chronicler really makes these reports the clearest available as far as understanding what is happening on the battlefield and where.
The mistake on the right is something I'm still coming to grips with as well. Sometimes I think I'm getting better, and then I realized I'd just been lucky. I tend to play with the most likely scenario in mind, rather than plan for a balance of most likely vs. worst case.
Count me in the camp of "don't worry too much about your bonebreakers taking cannons to the head. Personally, I'd be too busy shooting the hell pit and (now both) warp lightning cannon(s) early on. I hate shooting artillery at things that will discount the hit even half the time, much less when a charmed shield is involved.
What are your thoughts on slings for the gutters? I've seen players with and without, and since most of the cost towards making them effective (poison) has been spent already, it doesn't seem too expensive. It more or less doubles their effectiveness on the turn they arrive, or when engaging things at range. That being said, you're pretty tightened down on points at this stage, I think.
Anyhow, great report, looking forward to the next.
RZ
“It was in lands of the Chi-An where she finally ran him to ground. There she kissed him deeply as he lay dying, and so stole from him his last, agonized breath.
On a delicate chain at her throat, she keeps it with her to this day.”
Red_Zeke wrote:What are your thoughts on slings for the gutters? I've seen players with and without, and since most of the cost towards making them effective (poison) has been spent already, it doesn't seem too expensive. It more or less doubles their effectiveness on the turn they arrive, or when engaging things at range. That being said, you're pretty tightened down on points at this stage, I think.
The reason I'm taking no slings is primarily because the models I'm using (tyranid rippers ) really clearly don't have slings or any ranged appendage for that matter. When the new book gave them throwing stars I could justify them spitting acid or something 6" but not a rapid firing missile weapon. The other reason is that Clan Internet loves the hell out of sling gutters, which is a huge disincentive for me. Thanks for the happy thoughts otherwise
@ Wehr -- The WLC shot at the cannon (totally ineffectively) until it was finally neutralized by gutters, and at that point in the game there was only one target that offered instant point gratification and that the WLC could take out by itself. In fact, the only tool I had left against the stank was the WLC, all my other armor-ignoring weapons were dead or fled. So: if I'm going to risk the WLC blowing itself up (90 pts) I want to not only be helpful to my troops but also get points back (like 300 of them). I suppose the chances of hitting the stank, wounding it (on 6+ unless I roll S10) and then doing its remaining 6 wounds (over the 2-3 shots I had at it) was about the same as sniping out a character in one of those other units - hitting, 2+ LOS, wounding (2+ unless S2 or S4) and D6ing the wound. But again, I had just 1 tool that had a chance of gutting the stank, so I was applying it, luck be damned.
Hitting blocks with the WLC's template isn't the easiest thing to pull off, with the strangeness of 2 artillery dice worth of deviation, particularly if you're trying to line up the pre-template shot to at least tag a character (who's on the corner, and which I always do). Especially late in the game when all the units are depleted pretty significantly. Soooo again, I was going for big money instead of 0 VP (how much I'd get for tagging out a line of schlubs here and there).
Ahh ok, I gotcha. I was wondering if I was missing a special rule or something that made killing the thing a little easier. I hadn't considered that using it to kill blocks is just that much harder with all the deviation. It what, bounces once, then moves an artillery die, zapping things in the way, then another die before it drops the template?
Boss Salvage wrote:The other reason is that Clan Internet loves the hell out of sling gutters, which is a huge disincentive for me.
Much respect there.
I had just 1 tool that had a chance of gutting the stank, so I was applying it, luck be damned.
I think it was the right call. One in six isn't great, but if you get it, the steam tank is probably completely crippled or worse. Being able to ignore armor even on your low strength shots is pretty nice too...
“It was in lands of the Chi-An where she finally ran him to ground. There she kissed him deeply as he lay dying, and so stole from him his last, agonized breath.
On a delicate chain at her throat, she keeps it with her to this day.”
Pretty awesome report thanks ! Shame the skaven couldn't pull out the win. It certainly didn't seem that either army had an advantage until late in the game which is just how you want it in my opinion. Because i'm starting a skaven army myself it's nice to be able to "playtest" through you so to speak. Two Warp lightning cannons sounds particularly cruel. I approve !
I've got a soft spot for spawn. 360 charge threat and unbreakable has some neat tricks, I think. But then I only see them from the far side of the table.
“It was in lands of the Chi-An where she finally ran him to ground. There she kissed him deeply as he lay dying, and so stole from him his last, agonized breath.
On a delicate chain at her throat, she keeps it with her to this day.”
But to the game.
Globes get into position to intercept the stank, and the blocks all advance at a good clip. Magic sees an IF scorch into the spearmen detachment decimate them and, without the 
Elsewise the globadiers abandon their stank target, since the censers were busy slobbering all over it, the general breaker & 
A couple flat out mistakes and some overreaching with Breaker 2 and general aimlessness with Breaker 1 certainly hurt. And for those keeping track of my assassin, note that he never even appeared on the table - he was so hidden that I never revealed him in the big NE brawl. Ah well.
!) and a couple more slaves - a bit more bite and a bit less skirmisher micro-management. Also, going to swap out the banner of the under-empire for some magic armor on the 
. It is always cool to see your write ups of the games that we have played, anytime you want I can crack out the Empire again to have another go.
