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I have visions of a walker army with some of them and lots of dragoons and ballistari. Would look ace but probably wouldn’t do very well
Depends entirely on how much the new weapons cost. But 65 points off makes Armigers viable as a mobile tank. 45 points off the Knight is also nice; it's a free Stormspear. I actually hoped for just making Reapers free and 25 points off the base Knight, since Feet are too strong, but I'll take it.
Would not be surprised if Death got 10th place. That list does not seem consistent enough for a major tourney.
As for Armiger weapons, I would be happy with a super-heavy pistol flamer. Haha.
I used to run a walker-heavy army in the Index days. Depending on the changes, I think we can run it again, actually. But the biggest problem is that even with the point reductions, we have very few leftover points to play around with. And it's readily apparent that I would not have much use for Lance Armigers, since my Knight, Dragoons, and Ballistarii all handle vehicles plenty well on their own. I actually would need anti-infantry more than anything. So maybe Flamer Armigers or the ever-flexible Icarus Crawlers.
https://spikeybits.com/2018/05/knights-playable-again-point-change-rumors.html I assume those point rumours are from this link, which lowers armigers by 60 points not 65. More importantly it only lowers the big knight by 25 points, not 45. Although they (I assume spikey bits themselves and not the source) later state that it would make the knights base cost 285 points when it would actually be 295
On top of that the gatling cannon would be lowered by 20 points, so it would be a 45 points drop for a lot of people but that doesn't seem like it's enough. I doubt they lower the cost of the stormspear rocket pod, that one is priced fairly already. so the only other points they could shave off then would be the 30/35 for the close combat weapons. Sure they could use a price drop but I'd rather them actually be useful.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/21 06:39:26
Arc Rifles are hammers in search of nails. Radium Carbines are better against most multi-wound targets, and Galvanic Rifles have better range and do a good job plinking infantry.
Your best bet is to let them count as Plasma Calivers. (Harsh, but true. They look pretty cool.)
PiñaColada wrote: https://spikeybits.com/2018/05/knights-playable-again-point-change-rumors.html
I assume those point rumours are from this link, which lowers armigers by 60 points not 65. More importantly it only lowers the big knight by 25 points, not 45. Although they (I assume spikey bits themselves and not the source) later state that it would make the knights base cost 285 points when it would actually be 295
On top of that the gatling cannon would be lowered by 20 points, so it would be a 45 points drop for a lot of people but that doesn't seem like it's enough. I doubt they lower the cost of the stormspear rocket pod, that one is priced fairly already. so the only other points they could shave off then would be the 30/35 for the close combat weapons. Sure they could use a price drop but I'd rather them actually be useful.
Yeah, not sure what to make of the math. If we shave 60 points off a Crusader, they become more appealing, but I really want to see how their relics and stratagems work. if only Questor Mechanicus get Machine Spirit Resurgent, then Imperial Knights as a standalone aren't happening. That being said, I really want a Freeblade with double Avengers. Double Avenger and Feet would definitely make these Knights great again.
But then again, I hope Knights don't become too good. Otherwise Shadowswords will be more common. (You might as well kiss your tanks and big characters goodbye.)
I am relatively new to AdMech, but I am going to run a squad of Vanguard with Arc weapons instead of plasma (already have a plasma squad as that is the obvious weapon for them) and see how it goes. I don't want to gimp my sit-back-and-shoot rangers with a weapon that is shorter range than their basic one and really wants to be within 12" for maximum effect. Vanguard on the other hand pile in towards their enemies and will probably briefly end up at rapid fire range where they will be more effective that the rad carbines.
Also, from a purely buying/modelling perspective, you only get one of most special weapons in a box of 10 dudes, but can take 3 special weapons in the squad, so there is efficiency to having squads with 3 different loadouts (I have been assembling my boxes as half Vanguard half Rangers to use both the "one-handed" main weapon poses too...)
I will also have an arc pistol on the Alpha to round it off...
Mark.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/21 09:04:09
Suzuteo wrote: All my radium weapons have been kitbashed into lasguns and laspistols. xD
Why? Are you running them as counts-as guard, or don't you like the aesthetic?
Mark.
1) I'm cheap and having infantry that can count as Vanguard, Rangers, or Guardsmen is nice. (Only one at a time, of course.)
2) This is an AdMech army, so if I am forced to use Guard to be competitive, they might as well look the part.
Dragoons are going nowhere, they're still among the best Imperium CC units out there. Also they're AdMech, so can infiltrate with Stygies VIII, which is another reason they're awesome. I had a little tournament at 1000 pts using Beta rules this week-end, and each time I had first turn, was playing 3 Dragoons, they were really really good.
Infiltrate, -2" to hit outside of 12" and telsa on a 4+ for one CP with S8 AP-1 weapons.
If Armigers can compete in that role, the bigger knights have a problem. No way 4 dragoons doesn't out-CC a Armiger at 160pts, but it's a "glass" cannon with no ranged weapon to really speak of.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/22 00:15:52
Point for point, I think 6x Dragoons are actually the hardest hitting Imperium CC unit. They just instantly demolish anything they touch. I think that unit with the Doctrina put out 32-33 S8 AP-1 2D hits for 408 points?
Meanwhile, they have -2 to hit outside of 12" and can first turn alpha strike. I can imagine Guard bringing 6x just to support them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/22 02:27:16
Suzuteo wrote: Point for point, I think 6x Dragoons are actually the hardest hitting Imperium CC unit. They just instantly demolish anything they touch. I think that unit with the Doctrina put out 32-33 S8 AP-1 2D hits for 408 points?
Meanwhile, they have -2 to hit outside of 12" and can first turn alpha strike. I can imagine Guard bringing 6x just to support them.
Is 6 the sweet spot or are folks taking 4-5 and finding equal success?
I was just in a tournament 1650 and i had a unit of 5 and a unit of 4. the 4 man unit was charged by 2 shield captains and a blood angels smash captain. i interrupted and killed the blood angels captain and he swung in death and killed 2, both shield captains killed another 1 and i still had 1 left. so they can take a nasty hit and keep on ticking. their worst enemy is the blood angel captain as they do the most reliable damage to them but the shield captains just bounce off. i think i like units of 5 but going to try 2 units of 6 dragoons and a unit of 4 twin autocannon ironstriders at the next tournament
IVIOOSE wrote: I was just in a tournament 1650 and i had a unit of 5 and a unit of 4. the 4 man unit was charged by 2 shield captains and a blood angels smash captain. i interrupted and killed the blood angels captain and he swung in death and killed 2, both shield captains killed another 1 and i still had 1 left. so they can take a nasty hit and keep on ticking. their worst enemy is the blood angel captain as they do the most reliable damage to them but the shield captains just bounce off. i think i like units of 5 but going to try 2 units of 6 dragoons and a unit of 4 twin autocannon ironstriders at the next tournament
Nice. I don’t have many so have some saving up to do! I want to try fielding at least a group of 5. I see some people taking 3 but then think conq strat is kinda wasted on a smaller number right.
Suzuteo wrote: Point for point, I think 6x Dragoons are actually the hardest hitting Imperium CC unit. They just instantly demolish anything they touch. I think that unit with the Doctrina put out 32-33 S8 AP-1 2D hits for 408 points?
Meanwhile, they have -2 to hit outside of 12" and can first turn alpha strike. I can imagine Guard bringing 6x just to support them.
Is 6 the sweet spot or are folks taking 4-5 and finding equal success?
Six is the maximum efficiency due to the rules of stratagem use. But I actually think 4 is the most practical size. You can do one in front, three behind or two in front, two behind when piling in.
Suzuteo wrote: Point for point, I think 6x Dragoons are actually the hardest hitting Imperium CC unit. They just instantly demolish anything they touch. I think that unit with the Doctrina put out 32-33 S8 AP-1 2D hits for 408 points?
Meanwhile, they have -2 to hit outside of 12" and can first turn alpha strike. I can imagine Guard bringing 6x just to support them.
Is 6 the sweet spot or are folks taking 4-5 and finding equal success?
Six is the maximum efficiency due to the rules of stratagem use. But I actually think 4 is the most practical size. You can do one in front, three behind or two in front, two behind when piling in.
Actually ruins are the biggest threat to dragoon efficiency lol. Even with just 4, maneuvering round a ruin is a pain in the ass.
Oh, I totally agree. Piling in around rocks and ruins is what makes units of 6 less-than-efficient. With 4, if you can fit one, you can get them all into CC.
What do you think about optimal squad size for sicarian infiltrators? I love the models and have assembled five with the flesch blasters and taser goads
Are they most efficient run as MSU or will filling out the squad give them more oomph on the charge?
If youre running mars run as large a squad as possible, they make for a great back up option for Wrath of Mars if your Kastelans get tied up or blown up. I run a squad of 8. With any other FW trait it doesnt matter.
Facisminthe41m wrote: What do you think about optimal squad size for sicarian infiltrators? I love the models and have assembled five with the flesch blasters and taser goads
Are they most efficient run as MSU or will filling out the squad give them more oomph on the charge?
I would make them as large as possible, since they can benefit from the Doctrina as well. Don't expect them to last more than one attack though.
Also did Josh Death get 10th place in that tournament?
He did indeed lost 4-16 to me. Then 20-0 all other opponents.
Got to say as an ad mech player as well as Nids I really like his list. Lot of clever tricks in there.
In the end I had a wicked beta strike which hit a touch harder than his alpha (he ambushed both units of priests and the dragoons and went first.) and it came down to very fine margins. Top player, top guy. Got my best sports vote as well.
Also did Josh Death get 10th place in that tournament?
He did indeed lost 4-16 to me. Then 20-0 all other opponents.
Got to say as an ad mech player as well as Nids I really like his list. Lot of clever tricks in there.
In the end I had a wicked beta strike which hit a touch harder than his alpha (he ambushed both units of priests and the dragoons and went first.) and it came down to very fine margins. Top player, top guy. Got my best sports vote as well.
Good to hear from you and glad you enjoyed the tournament. What hive fleet were your nids?
Ideasweasel wrote:
Also did Josh Death get 10th place in that tournament?
He did indeed lost 4-16 to me. Then 20-0 all other opponents.
Got to say as an ad mech player as well as Nids I really like his list. Lot of clever tricks in there.
In the end I had a wicked beta strike which hit a touch harder than his alpha (he ambushed both units of priests and the dragoons and went first.) and it came down to very fine margins. Top player, top guy. Got my best sports vote as well.
This is exactly what I was saying though. His list seems to come down entirely to how well his first turn goes. If you don't remove enough models and the other guy hits harder, you just lose.
The mortar teams are more able to hide out of LOS and contribute plinking fire than the sniper teams. Mephiston is a lot more damage than a techmarine on bike, and the second slam captain can run VERITAS VITAE. The arquebuses are dum. THeir points are better spent on scouts to hold far objectives. Scouts can be used to prevent your infiltration from getting spaced out by nurglings. Assuming normal relic buys and black rage, you start at 9CP. You get 2 5+ refund rolls for every 1CP you spend. I really don't like the elysian flyer for first turn charges to block overwatch. I get the idea, but I feel like a savvy player won't give you that charge. Better off having more CP and something like mephiston that will cause some hurt.
Wulfey wrote: My variation on Josh Death's list would be something like this. I think he could write his list to better play long game objectives if he goes second.
The mortar teams are more able to hide out of LOS and contribute plinking fire than the sniper teams. Mephiston is a lot more damage than a techmarine on bike, and the second slam captain can run VERITAS VITAE. The arquebuses are dum. THeir points are better spent on scouts to hold far objectives. Scouts can be used to prevent your infiltration from getting spaced out by nurglings. Assuming normal relic buys and black rage, you start at 9CP. You get 2 5+ refund rolls for every 1CP you spend. I really don't like the elysian flyer for first turn charges to block overwatch. I get the idea, but I feel like a savvy player won't give you that charge. Better off having more CP and something like mephiston that will cause some hurt.
Some feedback:
1) One important part of Death's list is that he had a Valkyrie in the event he needed to drop his infantry to satisfy the half-deploy requirement and move them around.
2) Not convinced we need Scouts with this list. There is no high-value artillery that needs to be defended. Death didn't have any either.
3) I don't think you have enough CP for this; doubt Death did either, to be fair. You have 14 to begin with. Minus 5 for Death Visions and two BA Relics. So 9 before the recycling kicks in. Minus 3 to get the Electro-Priests and Dragoons into position, minus 4 for the BA characters. Zealous Congregation, CDI, Honour the Chapter, and Red Rampage cost 8 CP. This means you need to recycle 6 out of 7 CP to pull off the alpha.
So maybe cut a Captain for that Techmarine and use Mephiston as your second character?
I agree that the Elysian mortar teams would be much more useful than Sniper Squads. Out of curiosity, do Elysians get the FAQ lasgun too?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/25 20:56:30
The reason for the scouts is so that you don't get spaced out by your opponents scouts. Infiltration can get hard blocked by nurglings. Mephiston could easily turn himself into a 3 squads of guardsmen and a commander for +4 CP. I am not sold on the necessity of ELYSIANS tbh. It could be something like this and then you would have a truly stupendous amount of CP. REmember that the list where josh lost is the list that could space out his infiltration using spores. This starts the game at 13CP after initial spends and gets 5+_5+ stacking refunds while your spare captain is alive (which is basically guaranteed for your alpha strike). Also this list has heaps of obsec troops that have several ways to get across the board quickly if need be. You can even relic dagger infiltrate some guardsmen if you have to. Or infiltrate some rangers if the mission calls for it.
Wulfey wrote: The reason for the scouts is so that you don't get spaced out by your opponents scouts. Infiltration can get hard blocked by nurglings. Mephiston could easily turn himself into a 3 squads of guardsmen and a commander for +4 CP. I am not sold on the necessity of ELYSIANS tbh. It could be something like this and then you would have a truly stupendous amount of CP. REmember that the list where josh lost is the list that could space out his infiltration using spores. This starts the game at 13CP after initial spends and gets 5+_5+ stacking refunds while your spare captain is alive (which is basically guaranteed for your alpha strike). Also this list has heaps of obsec troops that have several ways to get across the board quickly if need be. You can even relic dagger infiltrate some guardsmen if you have to. Or infiltrate some rangers if the mission calls for it.
Are we sure about the 2x19 Electro-Priests too? I mean, why two units and why 19 instead of 20? Is it an London Open objective for units of 20+? Because with 306 points, I can see 3x Lascannon Ironstriders being useful. That or 3x Basilisks or 2x Icarus Crawlers.
For those talking about removing sniper squad and arquebuses. You’re not getting how he used them.
2x19 electropriests is presumably because he plays a lot more itc than etc so will transfer the army across.
The techpriest on bike was a very points efficient and safe way to carry the vitae.
There’s a lot more to his list than who hit hardest turn one. He still had priests and dragoon’s going at the end of the game.
