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Hey Guys

So A good friend of mine and I were playing a game and had a friendly debate about Gun Drones that Detact from DevilFish, In the text It states it becomes a Independant Unit, but can never be a Scoring Unit. The Debate was if it would count as a kill point, since it can't claim a objective, but still can contest. I personally think that just because it is a unit, it would count as a Kill point, but that is only my opinion, what do you folks think?

It does indeed count as a kill point, and they can also contest an objective but not claim it. If the D-Fish is destroyed with with the drones still attached, the fish gives up 2 kill points...thats why I would always put SMS on my fishes.

It isnt your opinion: it's the rules.

Every unit is worth one KP, by default.

It doesn't become a separate unit until after it detaches: so it wouldn't be a separate kill point until it detached.

Shenra wrote:It doesn't become a separate unit until after it detaches: so it wouldn't be a separate kill point until it detached.

I agree. So if the Devilfish gets popped with the drones still attached, then that is one KP. If the gun drones detach, then you have two possible kill points.

PraetorDave wrote:

Shenra wrote:It doesn't become a separate unit until after it detaches: so it wouldn't be a separate kill point until it detached.

I agree. So if the Devilfish gets popped with the drones still attached, then that is one KP. If the gun drones detach, then you have two possible kill points.

The drones are treated as passengers if the devilfish gets popped so they auto detach/disembark and take pinning,test or saves from explosions.

yes, so if they die from an exploding devilfish they will give a KP up.


no matter how you look at it, they are a KP because they are forced to disembark when the Fish dies.

The fish is one KP and the drones, that must disembark after the fish is destroyed, are also a KP. Easy.

Here is the not so easy part that I cant really answer since I don't have the codex in front of me. How do you treat a devilfish that tried to come on from reserve but had to roll a DT test to get fully on the table and fails its test leaving half the tank off...meaning auto destroyed..and all passengers destroyed as well.

Does it count as 1 KP or 2 KP. I don't have a tau codex in front of me so I don't know the wording on drones.

2 K.P. unfortunately. remember that the tau codex was written long before KP were thought up and are shoehorned into the 5th edition rules. the extra KP is why it is always a good idea to upgrade to a stealth missle system.

That's not true. They are only an extra KP if they disembark. They are weapons untill they disembark. A wrecked or destroyed roll causes them to desembark then they are an extra KP even if they die in that explosion. But if they are destroyed in say weapon destroy roll or destroyed because they didn't come out of reserves by the end or one of the few ways that causes the destruction of the DF without causeing them to disembark they are not an extra KP. They are not passangers but weapons of the DF until they disembark.

VoxDei wrote:That's not true. They are only an extra KP if they disembark. They are weapons untill they disembark. A wrecked or destroyed roll causes them to desembark then they are an extra KP even if they die in that explosion. But if they are destroyed in say weapon destroy roll or destroyed because they didn't come out of reserves by the end or one of the few ways that causes the destruction of the DF without causeing them to disembark they are not an extra KP. They are not passangers but weapons of the DF until they disembark.

you need to read the gun drone passage as it completely contradicts what you're (incorrectly) claiming. they are NOT weapons but passengers (pg 30) for damage purposes and fire in addition to the normal rules for weapons/speed just like passengers do.

The drones don't become a unit until after they detach. So if the vehicle suffers an 'explosion' and they both happen to die before they detach, then the new unit was never created and cannot give up a Kill Point.

But once they detach, they are most definitely a separate unit and therefore worth a kill point from then on.

Sorry Yak that is not true; the drones are treated as passengers for any and all Damage results.

While it is true that Shaken/stunned, and other results did effect passangers in the past, but no longer do, it is also true that the Drones cannot be chosen as weapon destoyed results.

When the Fish explodes the drones are already a separate unit, if they die as passengers they must be passengers(after all a Firewarrior squad who dies in a fish-splosion nets a second KP as well)

Kommissar Kel wrote:Sorry Yak that is not true; the drones are treated as passengers for any and all Damage results.

While it is true that Shaken/stunned, and other results did effect passangers in the past, but no longer do, it is also true that the Drones cannot be chosen as weapon destoyed results.

When the Fish explodes the drones are already a separate unit, if they die as passengers they must be passengers(after all a Firewarrior squad who dies in a fish-splosion nets a second KP as well)

i never said they could be affected by weapon destroyed results. The rules are clear that they are treated as passengers for damage results. The rules are also very clear that they don't act as a separate unit UNTIL the vehicle is destroyed. Until that point, they are part of the vehicle, which is why they have to fire at the same time the vehicle fires instead of separately like an embarked unit would.

So to be clear:

1) Drones are not purchased as a separate unit when selecting the vehicle.
2) The rules never indicate that the Drones are a separate unit UNTIL they detach.
3) They are treated as passengers for vehicle damage results, but this is not the same thing as them actually being a separate embarked unit.


So if a Devilfish explodes an both drones happen to die immediately in the explosion, no separate unit is ever present in the game and therefore no additional Kill Point is awarded.

Kommissar Kel wrote:While it is true that Shaken/stunned, and other results did effect passangers in the past, but no longer do, it is also true that the Drones cannot be chosen as weapon destoyed results.

i was under the impression that shaken/stunned results still DO affect passengers.

pg 30 of the codex "While attached the gun drones may fire as part of the vehicle,..,in addition to any other weapons.." (emphasis mine)

They are also listed under the weapons in the vehicle.

the only time they count as passengers is during the movement phase they may disembark as passengers or if the vehicle is damaged they may disembark as passengers.

The only time they count as a separate unit is if the disembark (if the vehicle takes an explodes damage roll they disembark and become a separate unit and addition KP even if they all die in that explosion. they have already disembarked before they die). How ever if the vehicle is removed from game in some other way such as they don't make it out of reserves before the game ends (can't think of any other ways at this moment) they are one KP. Granted this is going to be a really rare occurrence and usually going to be 2 KP.

VoxDei wrote:
The only time they count as a separate unit is if the disembark (if the vehicle takes an explodes damage roll they disembark and become a separate unit and addition KP even if they all die in that explosion. they have already disembarked before they die).

Not sure where you're getting that idea. The rules for an explosion state the passengers take the hits and then any surviving models are placed on the table. So if no drone survives, none are placed on the table and the drone unit never exists.

I guess the question really comes down to at what point are the drones considered a separate unit upon vehicle destruction.

The FAQ says nothing about it(only that the Drones are inconsequential for Victory points, which is something not even used except as a tie-breaker).

Since the only way the drones become a separate unit RAW, is for them to voluntarily detach in their own movement phase, then maybe they never become a separate unit from the devilfish when the devilfish(or other mounting vehicle) gets destroyed.

It is either that, or as passengers they would be treated as a separate unit the moment destruction occurs(so while the "passengers" are taking exploded vehicle damage)

Kommissar Kel wrote:

While it is true that Shaken/stunned, and other results did effect passangers in the past, but no longer do,

Shaken/stunned passengers may not fire from the vehicle in their next shooting phase. They may however disembark and fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yakface wrote:

Not sure where you're getting that idea. The rules for an explosion state the passengers take the hits and then any surviving models are placed on the table. So if no drone survives, none are placed on the table and the drone unit never exists.

Your right...i'm not sure why i thought they are placed on the table and then take the hits. My bad. They take the hits and then disembark. I must have been confusing wrecked where they disembark and then take pinning

Kommissar Kel wrote:I guess the question really comes down to at what point are the drones considered a separate unit upon vehicle destruction.

The FAQ says nothing about it(only that the Drones are inconsequential for Victory points, which is something not even used except as a tie-breaker).

Since the only way the drones become a separate unit RAW, is for them to voluntarily detach in their own movement phase, then maybe they never become a separate unit from the devilfish when the devilfish(or other mounting vehicle) gets destroyed.

It is either that, or as passengers they would be treated as a separate unit the moment destruction occurs(so while the "passengers" are taking exploded vehicle damage)

I'm certainly not going to disagree with you that the rules don't explicitly cover what happens when the Drones disembark outside of their own movement phase. Since they are treated like passengers they definitely have to disembark when the vehicle is destroyed but beyond that the rules don't cover it...but really that's inconsequential to the question at hand (especially since everyone naturally plays that once they disembark they are a separate unit regardless of whether the rules clearly say to do so or not).

The point you seem to be trying to make is that they count as a separate unit WHEN still attached to the vehicle. Again, I disagree because the rules don't specify that they are and it also isn't consistent with how the rules are handled throughout the rest of the game.

When a separate unit is transported, that unit is still a separate unit inside the vehicle. They fire at a different time and can target a separate unit. That unit is purchased from the codex as a separate entry and then embarked into the vehicle...in other words, it exists before the game begins as a separate entity.

Drones on a vehicle do not fit into this criteria. They have to fire along with the vehicle at the same target as the vehicle. Right or wrong, nobody plays them as a separate unit...for example if a scenario asked you to total up how many units you have in your deployment zone, for example, and you had a Devilfish with attached Drones, I don't think anyone would argue that this counts as two units. Similarly, if an ability affected all units within range (like Grotesques's rampage ability, for example) I don't think anyone would believe that attached drones get affected separately from their vehicle.

That's because they are effectively part of the vehicle except that they take damage like passengers which dictates that they do have to disembark when the vehicle gets destroyed.

But until the vehicle is destroyed, there is only ONE unit operating on the table. You do not have a drone unit 'inside' the vehicle as the drones operate as part of the vehicle until it is destroyed (or they disembark on their own).


And this comes back to how kill points work. You get points for destroying a unit. By that definition you wouldn't even get an extra kill point for an IC joined to a unit that was wiped out except for the fact that the rules explicitly allow it. So when you destroy a vehicle with drones, you are destroying ONE unit. Until those drones detach they are part of the vehicle and do NOT operate independently, not even to be able to shoot at a different target (or after the vehicle). It is only when the drones detach that they become an independent unit and are therefore worth a second Kill Point.

As a tau player, I'm going to have to remember this thread. Still I find it odd how so many little problems the codex seems to have in regard to situations like this.

I guess the best way to define gun drones is wargear that can, and in some cases must, become a separate unit. You don't get kill points for wargear.

juraigamer wrote:As a tau player, I'm going to have to remember this thread. Still I find it odd how so many little problems the codex seems to have in regard to situations like this.

I guess the best way to define gun drones is wargear that can, and in some cases must, become a separate unit. You don't get kill points for wargear.

Wargear or not Wargear it doesn't matter...Kill Points are about UNITS being destroyed. If you play that a Devilfish with Drones attached counts as two separate units for everything (like in special scenarios where number of units in an area mattes, for example) then you would have to play that the Drones always count as a separate Kill Point when destroyed.

But if you don't play that way (as with everyone I've ever heard of does) then the Drones cannot count for a separate Kill Point until they become a separate unit...and for the record this is exactly the way I believe 'Chronus' works as well. If he dies with the vehicle then only 1 Kill Point total is gained because there was never a separate 2nd unit in existence. Only if he escapes is he then worth a point on his own.

yakface wrote:and for the record this is exactly the way I believe 'Chronus' works as well. If he dies with the vehicle then only 1 Kill Point total is gained because there was never a separate 2nd unit in existence. Only if he escapes is he then worth a point on his own.

Would there happen to be a listing in the SM codex or a faq that states this?

juraigamer wrote:
Would there happen to be a listing in the SM codex or a faq that states this?

Nope. GW seems to strangely avoid Kill Point questions in their FAQs in relation to weird units that are 'created'. For example, they cover Victory Points for the Gun Drones/Devilfish, but not Kill Points...

Yakface -if you reread Chronus he ALWAYS counts as a KP, because he gains the IC rule as soon as the vehicle is destroyed; he thus fulfills the criteria for a true Retinue + IC (as he certainly cannot leave the tank until it is destroyed, and he doesnt have the IC rule until it is) and is thus always 2KP even if he rolls a 1 - 2 on vehicle destruction.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yakface -if you reread Chronus he ALWAYS counts as a KP, because he gains the IC rule as soon as the vehicle is destroyed; he thus fulfills the criteria for a true Retinue + IC (as he certainly cannot leave the tank until it is destroyed, and he doesnt have the IC rule until it is) and is thus always 2KP even if he rolls a 1 - 2 on vehicle destruction.

Not that this argument is ultimately relevant to this thread, but I do disagree with that assessment for this reason:

Chronus is not a model (not even a creature) until he jumps clear of the vehicle. It is ONLY at that point that the rules state that he has the 'above profile' (and profiles are what make a model 'a model' in the game).

Before that point he is just a special rule for the vehicle that gives them BS5.


Now, both of these situations are the kind of thing that if GW finally made a FAQ ruling on that was different from my viewpoint I would totally be okay with it, because its honestly a really fudgy situation...the rules just aren't clear on exactly how units that are basically created during the game are handled when they don't actually ever end up being created.

Yet he is a character (IC), which is defined as a unit.

So he is a model-less unit, still worth a kill point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet he is a character (IC), which is defined as a unit.

So he is a model-less unit, still worth a kill point.

But he is not an IC UNTIL the vehicle is destroyed. And if he dies when the vehicle is destroyed when was he ever an Independent Character?

He becomes an IC when the vehcle is destroyed, and simultaneously is destroyed if he fails his roll -but he was still a unit