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For awhile I thought the Psyker Battle Squad (PBS) was necessary as the foil for deathstars like nob bikers, armored nobs and a way to get rid of fateweaver among other things. However I run into less and less Xenos and play more and more Marine armies with Librarians who rush you with their librarian so you get into 24 and who auto regroup if they don't run off the board unless you have something within 6 which isn't always possible.

In Conflict GT 2011 I played in the Psyker battle squad and it was mediocre
Game 1 vs Dark Eldar
making the rest of a large unit of hellions run away. There wasn't that many left after the manticore got done with them anyway.
game 2 vs blood angels
did nothing except die
game 3 vs tyranids
got to weaken one squad of genestealers once all the tervigons were dead but I had the game at that point anyway
game 4 vs imperial guard
did nothing couldn't kill any vehicles except for one.
game 5 vs blood angels
was really good once making 3 remaining marines out of a combat squad run off the table off the objective

Vs Nova 2010 where it was much better
Game 1 Logan wing
PBS was game winning vs my first round Logan wing opponent.
Game 2 vs orks battle wagon
Would have been good vs my ork opponent if I didn't fail the rolls.
Game 3 vs imperial guard.
actually killed some vehicles so was able to use it on infantry who ran.
game 4 vs space marines
he had some marines near the edge on his objective I was able to make run away.

The meta seems to have changed to armies that rushing you which have their librarian in range of your PBS after their first turn and running off the board is harder to make them do. Also Dark Angels and Black Templar are fearless. Grey Knights used to be in 3rd edition dunno if they will be again in 5th edition.

Have you been running PBS still? They just got cut from my latest list.

DakkaDakka wrote:

They are pretty cheap point wise for what you get and they can still drop a pie plate if you're up against a fearless army. They can help to make up for the lack of h2h in Amy IG list. I don't play IG but I always make sure to design my list to take in account for them. I think they are still a great investment.

Che-Vito wrote:They are situationally useful.

Using them against Guardsmen blobs with Commissars? Golden.
Using them to force low Ld pinning checks on key units? Perfect.
Using them to allow your Callidus assassin to ID a unit of Nobs? Priceless.

Depends on what you're playing, and how you roll though.

They wouldn't affect blobs with Commissars. They have stubborn, which means they ignore all negative modifiers.

I only ran PBS a couple times, but found out that I had the worst meta in the world for it. At the time I was playing 'Nids and Eldar. (this was before the 'Nid FAQ that said SitW didn't affect embarked units) The lesson learned was that LD 9 against any sort of psyker defense is bad times, since they just get shut down. Their ability is a "clutch" ability that's there to save your and make a unit fall back. Well, if you only get the ability off half of the time, you really need two or three units to make sure they do their job when it's important. At that point you're paying a whole lot. You get some large blasts to give them something to do the rest of the game, but they've always seemed like quite a points and playstyle commitment to me.

Kirika wrote:The meta seems to have changed

This is actually a common problem with large tournament players. You play a handful of games and use the results thereof to determine the meta for the entirety of 40k. The fact that you're playing at a tournament does not mean that you're looking at any less of a small and subjective data set. Tournaments dont' give you any more truth than just a couple of regular games of 40k.

That said, what you're probably seeing isn't that PBSs have gotten worse, but that you're seeing more clearly what PBSs are capable of. PBSs are support units that are likely more of a nuisance in most games with a few times where they can really shine. Like basilisks or marbo, when they're on, they're ON, but most of the time, they're not.

My guess is that in the couple of games you played last year, you just so happened to play against opponents against whom the PBS is more likely to be useful, and the players themselves were less prepared for it. That or you were just much more lucky last year than you were this year.

In any case, having your expectations of a PBS lowered from "necessary" to "situationally useful" sounds like a healthy readjustment to me.

ElCheezus wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:They are situationally useful.

Using them against Guardsmen blobs with Commissars? Golden.
Using them to force low Ld pinning checks on key units? Perfect.
Using them to allow your Callidus assassin to ID a unit of Nobs? Priceless.

Depends on what you're playing, and how you roll though.

They wouldn't affect blobs with Commissars. They have stubborn, which means they ignore all negative modifiers.

I only ran PBS a couple times, but found out that I had the worst meta in the world for it. At the time I was playing 'Nids and Eldar. (this was before the 'Nid FAQ that said SitW didn't affect embarked units) The lesson learned was that LD 9 against any sort of psyker defense is bad times, since they just get shut down. Their ability is a "clutch" ability that's there to save your and make a unit fall back. Well, if you only get the ability off half of the time, you really need two or three units to make sure they do their job when it's important. At that point you're paying a whole lot. You get some large blasts to give them something to do the rest of the game, but they've always seemed like quite a points and playstyle commitment to me.

commisars allow you to ignore negative modifiers for moral tests only. you take pinning tests at reduced ld.

mrdabba wrote:commisars allow you to ignore negative modifiers for moral tests only. you take pinning tests at reduced ld.

This is true. I hadn't thought of the pinning angle. I also hadn't noticed that Stubborn was only for morale tests. The more you know! (cue someone with the image)

Of course, spending the points for a PBS AND a squad to pin guardsmen means that you're spending more points on this contrivance than your opponent is spending on guardsmen. Plus, just because they're pinned doesnt' mean they're dead. They still preserve their KP and can still hold objectives.

Why not just spend the points on stuff that kills them dead?

Ailaros wrote:Why not just spend the points on stuff that kills them dead?

Because it's far, far harder to wipe out over 30 Guardsman in cover who are stubborn than it is to pin them and free up firepower to target something else in the army? Having a unit pinned makes it essentially as good as dead for a turn, as it ain't doing anything. (IG of course, always have the GbITF order to mitigate this)

It may not be as outright destructive as simply 'killing stuff dead' but it affects the game in far more subtler methods. Delaying a power blob for a turn is damn useful. Being able to focus fire on two blobs rather than three because one is pinned is also very useful. Being able to do this over, and over, and over again is fantastic!

And just as an aside, IG pack plenty of indirect ways to force pinning. Every artillery piece in your Heavy Support section for example. You don't have to buy a unit of Ratlings to make a PBS effective, chances are you've got a complimenting unit in your army already.

L. Wrex

I haven't had a list with artillery in 5th edition, even through I keep threatening to convert some Colossi. I think PBS have a place, but you really do have to have a list that's either built for it, or like you said, already has many of the components. There are plenty of builds where the PBS adds far less than it's worth.

I could see use in pinning blobs, since they're not likely to be taken down by two unit's worth of fire (which is what the PBS and a pinning imply). However, there are many units that could potentially be destroyed or severely weakened by that much shooting. Most large and tough units aren't as easily affected by PBS, though. (some deathstars excluded, but again, that depends on your meta)

I think my point is that PBS + pinning is somewhat situational based on psyker defense, non-fearless targets, and sniper rifles actually doing something or artillery not scattering. "Moar gunz!" however, always shoot with pretty much the same reliability. They can have a good place, but again, your list needs to already be ready for them and your meta needs to not shoot down their abilities. Using them or not is a touchy judgment call that basically means you have to try it in your local meta for a while to really know how it will work out.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:Because it's far, far harder to wipe out over 30 Guardsman in cover who are stubborn than it is to pin them and free up firepower to target something else in the army? Having a unit pinned makes it essentially as good as dead for a turn, as it ain't doing anything. (IG of course, always have the GbITF order to mitigate this)

Except it doesn't make it dead for a turn. It still keeps its KP, and it still scores on objectives. Plus, you've got to successfully get your psychic power off, and kill stuff with pinning weapons. Then, as you mention, a nearby officer can just get them back in the fight.

You're spending more points than a blob just so that you can slightly inconvenience the blob. Hardly a good deal if ever I've heard one.

ElCheezus wrote:PBS + pinning is somewhat situational based on psyker defense, non-fearless targets, and sniper rifles actually doing something or artillery not scattering.

Right, which is really the problem. There are so many ways to neutralize PBSs. That they appeared to work well before was either because of luck or very unprepared opponents.

I still think it is really useful, especially for the pts. But I don’t run them at full strength, I like 6 psychers.

-6 ld still puts the odds pretty strongly in your favor of breaking units
S 6 pie plates at 36” inches that are AP3 or better half the time is pretty nice anti MEQ
A 7 strong PBS is a cheap way of getting additional chimeras

I think at 135pts it still is a strong unit. It statistically suffers from diminishing returns in numbers above 4, around 7 they get pretty noticeable.

I also think it’s a neat version of psychic defense. Hitting an enemy psycher with -6 Ld hurts. Granted a lot of psychers have hoods or other forms of their own defense, but it’s guards only form of defense aside from just blowing the unit away which is not always possible.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, an interesting tid bit on psychic defense. Rune of Warding is actually worse against a LD 9 psycher like the PBS than a traditional psychic hood.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I still think it is really useful, especially for the pts. But I don’t run them at full strength, I like 6 psychers.

-6 ld still puts the odds pretty strongly in your favor of breaking units
S 6 pie plates at 36” inches that are AP3 or better half the time is pretty nice anti MEQ
A 7 strong PBS is a cheap way of getting additional chimeras

I think at 135pts it still is a strong unit. It statistically suffers from diminishing returns in numbers above 4, around 7 they get pretty noticeable.

I also think it’s a neat version of psychic defense. Hitting an enemy psycher with -6 Ld hurts. Granted a lot of psychers have hoods or other forms of their own defense, but it’s guards only form of defense aside from just blowing the unit away which is not always possible.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, an interesting tid bit on psychic defense. Rune of Warding is actually worse against a LD 9 psycher like the PBS than a traditional psychic hood.

I agree that 6 is the number for how many Psykers to have. At that point the blast wounds almost all infantry on 2+, and the -6 LD is good enough most times. It helps in being able to have two.

However, you can't use them as a form of defense against other Psykers. The -LD only lasts until the end of your shooting phase. So the enemy Psyker is back up to their LD by their turn. This is something I think gets overlooked quite often.

RoW may not be as good as a PH, theoretically, but it's good enough to effectively shut down PBS often enough to make them unreliable.

Thanks for the replies.

I was just using those two tournaments as examples. I play in rogue trader tournaments locally and a good amount of pick up games as well.

I do run Manticores but you have to fire indirect to cause pinning which isn't always possible with moving on if you reserve and moving to avoid assaults by scouts and outflankers.

As time passes I seem to be playing against less Orks and Xenos which PBS is really good against and more Marines with their Librarians/Runepriests and ATSKNF.

In 2009 when I started Guard things like Nob bikers and nobs in wagons was all the rage where the PBS was game winning. Then came Demons and Fateweaver you really wanted a PBS against that too.

Fast forward to 2011 and your seeing plenty of Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Vanilla Marines and with the updated FAQs Dark Angels and Black Templars will make a come back. Guard Mirrors are becoming less common although Tyranids and Demons show sometimes.

PBS isn't too good vs Marines unless you are out of range of their librarian and they are near the board edge or you can get something within 6 of them after they run.

The 135 points for a 6 psyker unit doesn't sound like that much but when it can be another scoring unit that makes a difference in 2/3 of your games that are for objectives.

I always take my PBS with me.
Why? Because most TROOP choices are not fearless, and it works vs:

Any Kind of MEQ with the exception of squads with chap and chaos cult marines (which are wasted points vs guard anyways...) and Deathwing termies
Tyranids out of synapse (part. stealers)
Orks with 10 or less models
opposing guards
DE
Eldar not in Avatar range
...

the list is long.

Of course we have the ATSKNF problem. But that is why I combine them with outflanking escorts
But especially against stealer spam it works really nasty. killing 3-5 stealers with flamers -> bam retreat -> stealers useless...)

Of course different communities have different meta, but their high range that outclasses the regular SM hood as well as the wolves psychic defence (and is only outclased by eldar runes) makes them valuable.
And if they have no target a S6 pie plate is never wrong.

Another little trick is going second and using them as a last turn "lash" to get enemy troops off an objective.

ElCheezus wrote:

However, you can't use them as a form of defense against other Psykers. The -LD only lasts until the end of your shooting phase. So the enemy Psyker is back up to their LD by their turn. This is something I think gets overlooked quite often.

We're both half right. I was mistaken, it only lasts to the end of the player turn (I thought it said game turn). But if you could somehow force a leadership check in your assault phase that unit will still be at the lower LD.

I do still find weaken resolve useful against marines. ATSKNF doesn't work if a unit is within 6 inches so you can chase units of marines off the board. Also jump pack marines have a pretty good chance of running off the table edge if you can hit them in the DZ. And if you have bottom of turn breaking that big marine unit will "destroy" it if they don't have another turn to regroup.

Not great but still pretty good for 70 pts. If all else fails shoot S6 plates are them.

I think as time goes on I kept raising my troop count so at 1750+ I'm running 6 troops now and if I want dedicated transports for them all and not have to put some in Vendettas, PBS is now the most situtational so is getting cut. Guard needs to have a high scoring unit count for objective missions because they die pretty easily and you might need to sacrifice one to melta a land raider.

Nazdreg
Psychic defense is a problem even with 24 inch range because most Marine armies bum rush you now so that 24 inch range hood is one vehicle 12 inch move away from being able to stop your PBS a large portion of the time.

I agree that PBS can be useful for getting troops of objectives on the last turn if you are going second if they are still alive, if they are not in hood range if the enemy troops are not still in a vehicle, if the enemy is not fearless, if the enemy is in line of sight and in range and IF you pass the psychic test. That is sure a whole lot of IFs I probably missed a couple
too.

ArtfcllyFlvrd
I find it really difficult to be in 6inches of the enemy after they run. Outflankers help but unless you turbo boost a Vendetta into position which puts it at risk and you rather be shooting your las cannons if your not shaken. Also you have to put yourself at risk to melta guns and charges hitting on rear armor.

Psychic defense is a problem even with 24 inch range because most Marine armies bum rush you now so that 24 inch range hood is one vehicle 12 inch move away from being able to stop your PBS a large portion of the time.

If Marines would bumrush stupidly they will be totally annihilated soon, PBS or not. They will soon give way under IG short range fire.

I agree that PBS can be useful for getting troops of objectives on the last turn if you are going second if they are still alive, if they are not in hood range if the enemy troops are not still in a vehicle, if the enemy is not fearless, if the enemy is in line of sight and in range and IF you pass the psychic test. That is sure a whole lot of IFs I probably missed a couple
too.

if the enemy fails his morale check, if I am able to shoot 1/4 of targetted squad down...

OK lets do the comparison:

Demolisher can be useful, if the enemy is within 24", if he is within LOS, if the demolishers weapon is still active, if he does not scatter, if he isnt stunned/shaken, if he is still there, if the enemy is dead afterwards and not killing you instead of you killing him, if you wound him actually, if the enemy is out in the open, if he killed important stuff...

Wanna have more?

seriously...

40k is a damn game of ifs. This is the reason why luck does play a role and has to be considered, there is just no safety.

I also dont say you HAVE to bring a PBS (well our german ETC guys do it all), but I do not support the opinion, they are worthless.