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I'm thinking about running a Ravenwing after i've finished enough of my current Eldar army.

This army is supposed to be fun, and a little different. I wont be playing competetively, just casually with my mates, but obviously I still like winning, everyone likes to win a few games.

The idea is an elite strikeforce. Fast, decent toughness and a few special tricks to run interference. Thats the idea anyway, it might just get tabled incredibly quickly.

HQ - 205

Sammael

Elites - 455

Inquisitor

Divine Pronouncement

Psychic Hood

Liber Heresius

Power Weapon

Retinue

4 Crusaders

Rhino

Culexus Assassin

3 Death Cult Assassins

Troops - 1025

Ravenwing Attack Squadron

3 Extra Bikes

Meltagun

Plasma gun

Attack Bike

Land Speeder

Ravenwing Attack Squadron

3 Extra Bikes

Meltagun

Plasma gun

Attack Bike

Land Speeder

Ravenwing Attack Squadron

3 extra Bikes

Meltagun

Plasma gun

Fast Attack - 310

Ravenwing Support Squadron

2 extra Land Speeders

3 Assault Cannons

3 Multi Meltas

Typhoon missile launcher

- 1995 points

So, what do you reckon. Elite strike force or total walk over?

Comments and criticism needed please!

Here are my thoughts on your list

* C:SM does a better bike army. If you have your heart set on using the Dark Angel rules, then play what you want -- just realize your gimping yourself.

* Speeders increase the cost of bike squads to much, and an AC speeder is not worth 100 points. If your going to use speeders, take advantage of whats cheap -- ie, typhoons!

* Is Sammael on a jetbike or his speeder?

* What role do the assassins play? Is there a better way to use those points?

* Don't mix special weapons on bike squads. Go melta, flamer or plasma. I use a PF on mine.

* At 2k points there is a low amount of long range anti-transport. How will it deal with 8 razorbacks full of assault BA? It needs to be able to pop some transports at range.

* How many models are there for 2k points? Thats what really scares me.

take typhoon/multi-melta speeders
and what are those assasins doing there really?
and maybe plasma or melta special weapons? i dont really like flamers but its up to you
attack bikes with multi-meltas?
and maybe some devastators for support?
and take jetbike for sammael.

I would add in more bikes, or give them something to support them, like predators. AC Speeders are just costly, I wouldn't field them. 600 points for all of them in your list. I would add 3 Typhoons instead, cheaper and much more useful. For the bike squads, I go with 2x melta, 2x plasma, or 2x flamer and Sgt with the meltabombs. I tend to avoid close combat as much as possible with bikes.

Culexus is there to create a leadership 7 bubble amoungst the enemy, and the death cult, to dish out some power weapon attacks. By picking targets carefully they are likely to win some combats, and that's 4 attempts to sweeping advance against leadership 7 or less. They are more just a fun way to augment my list, rather that be super competitive, but you are right, maybe points are better spent on the Ravenwing itself.

Sammael will have his jetbike and Attack bikes will be running with multimeltas, just to clarify.

Thanks for the pointers, I've never come accoss a RW army before so I'm not entirely sure how to build an effective list for them.

I'll have a quick rewrite later.


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Also, ac speeders too expensive? Aren't they about ten points more than Space Wolves and scoring units?


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Typhoons are lovely and cheap though...

well..im not so sure are they REALLY scoring units, i really dont know. coz BGB says someyhing like these are never counted scoring unit: vehicles.
so.. i dont really know as codex says something like: its counted indeperent scoring unit or so
sooo... i know its codex over BGB, but still not sure...

Cnevets wrote:I would add in more bikes, or give them something to support them, like predators. AC Speeders are just costly, I wouldn't field them. 600 points for all of them in your list. I would add 3 Typhoons instead, cheaper and much more useful. For the bike squads, I go with 2x melta, 2x plasma, or 2x flamer and Sgt with the meltabombs. I tend to avoid close combat as much as possible with bikes.

I play a bike army, and often you cant avoid close combat with them. In fact, I put a PF on the squads with an IC on a bike to help with the CC.

Let me give an example of what I mean...

Lets say that I see 10 BA marines move my direction, and they landed about 15" away, so he can assault next turn. I will move 2 bike squads with PG forward 12". I rapid fire all 4 PG for a total of 8 shots, plus the 2 MM shots from the bike. Most of the bolters are in rapid fire range (some will always happen to be out of 12" it seems). I can expect to kill ~8 of the BA, which is what my normal is. There are 2 BA left, and so I assault them with the 2 squads. The PFs will finish those last 2 models. I then consolidate back away from the models I just assaulted, and get ready to repeat on another unit.

I call this strategy "Sealing the Deal"

What makes bike squads powerful is the ability to deliver enough of a punch to a small area as quickly as possible. When you do, you need to make sure there is enough punch to get the job done. If I did not assualt those last 2 BA in the previous example, they could assault the back end of one of my squads -- so the PF would not be able to get into combat until the second assault turn. That means that I would be locked in assault and not able to move. This allows him to bring the rest of his army to bear on that squad stuck in assault. I want him to be playing my game and trying to catch me, as soon as I get stuck I'm then playing his game.


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strifeesp wrote:Also, ac speeders too expensive? Aren't they about ten points more than Space Wolves and scoring units? ..

Yes, yes they are.
The AC is a wonderful weapon, as its good vs infantry as well as armor (its better than a LC across all armor types). However, GW thinks this is the case as well, and has over-prices most ACs you will see. A few are good deals, such as on LR's, but often they are just simply to expensive to buy.

Ok, great advice all round. Especially the stuff about "sealing the deal" labmouse, that gave me more of a feel about how this army is going to play.

I've written a more sensible list dispensing with the shiny trinkets that are Witchunters, in favour of a more bike focussed army.

HQ - 205

Sammael on jetbike.

Troops - 1300

Ravenwing Attack Squad
3 extra bikes
Attack Bike with Multimelta
2 Plasma guns
Powerfist

Ravenwing Attack Squad
3 extra bikes
Attack Bike with Multimelta
2 Plasma guns
Powerfist

Ravenwing Attack Squad
3 extra bikes
Attack Bike with Multimelta
2 Plasma guns
Powerfist

Ravenwing Attack Squad
3 extra bikes
Attack Bike with Multimelta
2 Plasma guns
Powerfist

Fast Attack - 225

Land Speeder Typhoon

Land Speeder Typhoon

Land Speeder Typhoon

Heavy Support - 190

Predator
Heavy Bolters


Predator
Heavy Bolters

1920 points.

What do you think of this one? Bearing in mind that I have 80 points left over. Nothing much from the codex within, or around, 80 points really screams out at me...





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Overheat on all my special weapons is a worry too, but I like the range and rapid fire on the plasma guns, especially with relentless. Maybe I could drop a couple for some flamers...

labmouse42 wrote:Here are my thoughts on your list

* C:SM does a better bike army. If you have your heart set on using the Dark Angel rules, then play what you want -- just realize your gimping yourself.

So 6 scouting doublemelta squads and 6 scouting MM's doesnt scare you? If you dont go first you HAVE to reserve, or your looking at a burning parking lot t1. Ravenwing has a fething nasty alphastrike if properly configured.

Alternatively, I could drop the preds and take another bike squad... decisions, decisions.

With the 80 points spare if you turn all of your Plasmaguns into Meltas and drop the powerfists you will have 220 points. That's enough to give each LS Tornado an extra Multi-Melta speeder to squadron with. Meltas on fast bikes are simply better than PC's and this way you should have enough meltas to give any Mech player fits and the Preds and Sammael (who should always be riding his Speeder) for the hordes.

Ozymandias wrote:With the 80 points spare if you turn all of your Plasmaguns into Meltas and drop the powerfists you will have 220 points. That's enough to give each LS Tornado an extra Multi-Melta speeder to squadron with. Meltas on fast bikes are simply better than PC's and this way you should have enough meltas to give any Mech player fits and the Preds and Sammael (who should always be riding his Speeder) for the hordes.

Good call!

Ozymandias wrote:With the 80 points spare if you turn all of your Plasmaguns into Meltas and drop the powerfists you will have 220 points. That's enough to give each LS Tornado an extra Multi-Melta speeder to squadron with. Meltas on fast bikes are simply better than PC's and this way you should have enough meltas to give any Mech player fits and the Preds and Sammael (who should always be riding his Speeder) for the hordes.

^
This

Also, Sammael's speeder does look like it could be a good plan, I hadn't really considered it before.


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Ok, third draft. I really like the idea of this one!

HQ - 205

Sammael in Land Speeder.

Troops - 1175

Ravenwing Attack Squad
3 extra bikes
Attack Bike with Multi-melta
2 Meltaguns
Apothecary

Ravenwing Attack Squad
3 extra bikes
Attack Bike with Multi-melta
2 Meltaguns

Ravenwing Attack Squad
3 extra bikes
Attack Bike with Multi-melta
2 Meltaguns

Ravenwing Attack Squad
3 extra bikes
Attack Bike with Multi-melta
2 Meltaguns

Fast Attack - 420

Ravenwing Support Squadron
Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder with Multi-Melta

Ravenwing Support Squadron
Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder with Multi-Melta

Ravenwing Support Squadron
Land Speeder Typhoon
Land Speeder with Multi-Melta

Heavy Support - 190

Predator
Heavy Bolters
Dozer Blade

Predator
Heavy Bolters
Dozer Blade

2000 points.

Jabbdo wrote:So 6 scouting doublemelta squads and 6 scouting MM's doesnt scare you? If you dont go first you HAVE to reserve, or your looking at a burning parking lot t1. Ravenwing has a fething nasty alphastrike if properly configured.

If they could turbo-boost during the scout phase, then yes, it would. They could take advantage of the 3++ cover save on the first round while shooting -- much like other scouting units that can turbo-boost.

Who cares if they can scout move? Huzzah! they can shoot their melta guns on the first turn. The enemy then pour out of their vehicles, move up and assault the ravenwing, or the plasma IG vet squads melt them into smoldering boots. Ive seen this happen many times and it sucks every time.

strifeesp --
More squads is not better. Bikes have a very large footprint on the board due to the base size. 4 squads is all you can field without them starting to trip over eachother. Your weapons are fairly short range, and you need to be able to keep spread out (ie, congo-line). Stick with 4 squads.

Many people are huge fans of melta - and melta is a great tool, but not the only tool in your toolbox. Run the example I gave earlier with 4 MG instead of PG. About 5 of the 10 BA will still be alive, and you will be unable to 'seal the deal'. In fact, if you dont have any PFs at all in those squads, you will just sit there and look like a bump on a log while the BA assault you and wipe out both squads of bikes.
I'm not saying "Don't take melta" When I field 4 squads of bikes, 1 of them is a melta gun squad. I use that as a threat for heavy armor or when I need the STR 8. Its all about ratios and what ratios of weapons do you like when playing. Anyone that tells you 'only use weapon X is limiting their own game'

In regards to your list, the biggest problem I've had in biker lists are transports. Rushing up and melta'ing them just means that the troops inside pour over you. Can you make your preads AC/LC preads easily? Don't add another LS to your typhoons. Squadrening vehicles is dangerous as one TL AC dread can knock down both from the sky with one round of shots. Limit your investment and dont make them to tempting of a target. Tyhpoons tend to live in my games because people view them as low threat priority.

This is really helping me refine my list, there is a lot to consider, and it's a totally new play-style for me. My main concern at the moment is being stuck in combat. With no quick and effective way of getting out of it.


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Intersting point about the landspeeder squadrons too...

just remember you can assault units that were in the transport you destroyed so you can melta a transport and assault the unit the same turn just make sure youre in range. i run ravenwing and they dont suck as much as most people think. in fact people thinking they suck has led to quite a few wins for me. bikes are fast moving and offer flexibility short to midrange. dont worry about them having no long range application because theyre fast and can cover the distance. theyre tricky to use but efficient and fun if used properly. i use either pure melta in the unit or mix it up with a plasma gun and a flamer and the last 5 games that i have used this combo in has shown good results. in the end do what you want to do and dont let others influence YOUR list to much or it wont be your list at all and you wont enjoy playing it. For The Lion.

I find it difficult to believe that any SM army really sucks. I really like the current list, the only thing I may do is drop a melta LS and take a couple of power fists. Maybe re jig the special weapons too, but other than that... I think I'm going to have to resist going and buying the whole army once payday rolls around!

Proxy some games before buying. I used chaos knights as bikes for many games while I was building up. Its better to know exactly what you want to buy before you do.

Ive never been able to assault a squad after destroying the vehicle. I guess the people I play against deploy the squad on the other side of the wreckage from my troops, so their further than 6".

For buying your army, if you can hold back your "I want it now" urge, you can buy on ebay for cheap. I bought from companies like hordeobits and reddragon games, where I bought piecemeal -- an arm here, a tire there. This allowed me to really customize my units.

Below are 2 images. My current 1750 list, and a up close shot so you can see how I did my conversions. I'm not the best painter in the world, but their table passable. Those plasma guns on these models are conversions from plasma pistols -- which my friends gave me in spades.

Nice looking army. Don't worry, I proxy every army before I buy it. It's just so tempting to jump right in sometimes though.

I'll let you know how any playtests go.

Really intresting stuff.. i have to say that i really wait to hear some results, coz im really a fan of bikes myself.