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I've just been thinking of army composition lately and started wondering about a largely shooty 'Nid force, with enough assault units sprinkled about in MC's and Genesteelers, though i always see ranged 'nid builds derided; so, just how viable are ranged 'nid builds?

I'd say they're about as viable as All Infantry IG, which means that you can play them, but you will be neutralizing a lot of the advantages that Nids bring to the table. That said, I don't have the nid codex, and can't reference to you how good the shooty units are to the stabby ones. But this is just me basically saying that if you aren't playing to the main strengths of your codex, you have to work that much harder to make it up on the gaming table.

All Infantry IG IS quite awesome, and is in fact one of the better builds Guard has. Sure leafblower is still top tier, but in this meta, some players just don't that have the multi shot firepower to bring down a swarm of Guardsmen. In fact, all infantry IG sometimes work best as a HTH combat force.

That being said, 'Nid's shooting is their weak point. They don't have the cheap widely available guns most other factions have, and often work better in assault anyway. The biggest problem is that 'Nid guns tend to be close ranged, and against other CC armies like Blood Angels or Space Wolves, you'll have a hard time doing enough damage with shooting to make it so they crumple when they charge you.

My recommendation would be to not go all shooty, but focus on shooty with a smaller close combat force ready to back you up.

They can work depending on how you build them.

'Nid shooting is either all short range, so you might as well assault anyway where your entire army is built to be good or really really expensive and limited so you won't be able to do enough of it to be competitive. In order to win, don't even try.

Now if you want to do it to have fun that's a different story. For-fun shooty nid armies are possible and enjoyable. Try this one, 15 Termagants, Devourers, Mycetic spore. 190 points per troop slot. Max they can scatter is 12 inches, they have an 18 inch range. Put them next to whoever you want to shoot and then pull out 45 dice to shoot the other guy. Do this with three or four troop slots and watch the other guy panic.

ChrisWWII wrote:All Infantry IG IS quite awesome, and is in fact one of the better builds Guard has. Sure leafblower is still top tier, but in this meta, some players just don't that have the multi shot firepower to bring down a swarm of Guardsmen. In fact, all infantry IG sometimes work best as a HTH combat force.

That being said, 'Nid's shooting is their weak point. They don't have the cheap widely available guns most other factions have, and often work better in assault anyway. The biggest problem is that 'Nid guns tend to be close ranged, and against other CC armies like Blood Angels or Space Wolves, you'll have a hard time doing enough damage with shooting to make it so they crumple when they charge you.

My recommendation would be to not go all shooty, but focus on shooty with a smaller close combat force ready to back you up.

I understand the necessity of assault in 40k, hence i've given up my dreams of an entirely shooty army...sorry tau

The reason i ask about 'Nids in particular is that i absolutely love their models, and i love the aesthetic of their weapons symbiotes. Ideally i'd like to run a list with a core of shooty warriors with an alpha, backed up by lots of gaunt's and monstrous creatures...ideally i'd also have the money to support such a thing <_<

For shooty you can look at the following:

termagants with devourers - 10 points each and assault 3 at 18" range
hive guard - best unit in the codex
warriors with prime and deathspitters - BS4, S5 and 18" range
gargoyles with fleshborers - only 6 pts each
carnixes with 2*twin linked devourers or deathspitters
tyrannofex with rupture cannon - S10 but only BS3 or the crazy 20 shot fleshborer hive for anti-horde

You can build a very shooty list, but the majority of this list will be shooting at 18" range and so you need to ensure you have some capable CC in there - certainly warriors and carnifexes can look after themselves ...

ChrisWWII wrote:All Infantry IG IS quite awesome, and is in fact one of the better builds Guard has. Sure leafblower is still top tier, but in this meta, some players just don't that have the multi shot firepower to bring down a swarm of Guardsmen. In fact, all infantry IG sometimes work best as a HTH combat force.

Do you play guard? If so i'd love to see that army in action via battle report. Video or otherwise. I've never seen it in action, I just know that a huge guard strength is cheap, plentiful armor.

I would recommend you do what you love with your army. If you find you get serious joy out of making a shooty nids list I say go for it.

Well almost every single weapon in the Tyranid arsenal is an assault weapon, so I don't see why you can't do both.

I agree, the Tyranid guns are to soften up the opponent before you charge in. It is best to do both.

I have also seen a good non tanc guard list. It does exists and the fact that ALL his meltas just went "what am I paying 5 points to kill 6 points?!" is just awsome.

Likewice, I think a fooot dark eldar list would be good.

Back on topic...
I use a mix of shooty and CC. Devourer guants, Hive guard, Genestealers, and yes... Zoanthroaps. The Zoan just work so well for removing Landraider and other armored vehicles. I never use MC anymore, just preferring a giant horde of little bugs. Use shooting to soften up big units befor you charge. worked well for me in most of my recent games.

gpfunk wrote:
Do you play guard? If so i'd love to see that army in action via battle report. Video or otherwise. I've never seen it in action, I just know that a huge guard strength is cheap, plentiful armor.

I do indeed play Guard, and just tried out my powerblob army list today. My conclusion was that I need to go buy some War of the Rings movement trays cause moving 60 Guardsmen is a PAIN. If you're looking to see an all infantry Imperial Guard army in action, I'd recommend looking at Ailaros's battlereports. He's probably dakka's expert with close combat Guard.

On a similar note what's everyones view on Warriors themselves, i know they have that instant-death thing going on, but all-in-all they seem like a really resilient shoot-charge unit

They are, just pay attention to the fact that weapons like lascannons, battle cannons etc. can ID them. That's their biggest weakness.

Anubis_513 wrote:I agree, the Tyranid guns are to soften up the opponent before you charge in. It is best to do both.

Agreed. This is how my wife plays, and for her being a new player, I have to say I actually lost the first few games simply because I hindered my list more then I should have. It was surprising how effective a devourer volley was, then a charge from hormagaunts. It just sucked for me REALLY badly. Even against a MEQ force that would do alot of damage. I personally see alot of the strength in Tyranids to be be in synergy from certain units. Like I said, a termagaunt volley first, then a hormagaunt charge, is just murder

Tyranid shooting is not bad really. Hive Guard, the Tyrannofex, Harpies, they all make good shooting units, but they are primarily used for anti tank. For infantry, I'd say Termagaunt work, but you can also take Hormagaunts or Genestealers instead if you prefer some assaulting power. But Terms are still great for holding objectives and softening up enemies from a range, and if you have a Tervigon or two, they are even better at this.

Anubis_513 wrote:I agree, the Tyranid guns are to soften up the opponent before you charge in. It is best to do both.

Very true, the only bad about this idea is with warriors being the most balanced for this they are such ID weapon magnets, granted I still run them every game and they work wonders.

I understand the argument that warriors are an ionstant death weaponds magnet but what in the nid list is not? He will try to shoot up whatever you have in your list if you have maxed out on warriors in spores and t6+ multiwound models I do not honestly se how all his lascannons, meltas and rockets can cover all of that!

Just leave out gargoyles and anything else that the bolter is good against and you are rocking baby!

Lets face it. Bolters hurt anything that nids can field. they just hurt less against the big stuff and most armies have enough hight str stuff that ignores armor saves so that big bugs just go down. I have strayed away from using warrior unless i have an attatched Prime to spam ID wounds off on.
Shootier nids with some really nasty CC units is one of the better builds. imho

The difference between a Gargoyle or Termagant eating an instant death shot and a Tyranid Warrior eating an instant death shot can be as much as 40 points per model, per wound for every shot they take.

That adds up REALLY REALLY FAST.

How mutch S8+ can he have if all you field are MC's and warriors? It would make all if his str 7- weaponds quite redundant.

3 carnifexes with 2XTL Devourer W/ Brainleech. Tervigon with onslaught.
36 Twin linked str 6 shots that move ~10 inches and then fire 18". Thank you, please pull through.


3 harpies mounted on 25" dowels straight up in the air. nothing with 24" range can ever shoot at them. Ha!

I really dont think that mounting harpies on dowels to put them out of your opponents range is really sporting or legal. It did make me smile though.

Nope. Absolutely correct, except for the legal part.
I'd need to see a rule or something to the contrary, and the thing is, I've already made sure that theres nothing there.

Definately not sporting though. Its what I like to call a "Dick Move". In defense of it, it does turn a 36" gun range into the hypotenuse of that triangle formed, since I would have to shoot down and out. With a 25" vertical leg, the other leg of the right triangle is 25.9 inches. So, a 36" gun becomes a 26 inch gun. Why complain that it flies?

There is, its called modeling for advantage.

Doomthumbs wrote:Nope. Absolutely correct, except for the legal part.
I'd need to see a rule or something to the contrary, and the thing is, I've already made sure that theres nothing there.

Definately not sporting though. Its what I like to call a "Dick Move". In defense of it, it does turn a 36" gun range into the hypotenuse of that triangle formed, since I would have to shoot down and out. With a 25" vertical leg, the other leg of the right triangle is 25.9 inches. So, a 36" gun becomes a 26 inch gun. Why complain that it flies?

Even if technically legal it's not something we want to encourage, and in most places would just start arguments.

I understand that apparently your local store is full of jerks whom you feel compelled to be a jerk back to, but that doesn't mean that we're all in that boat, and need advice like this posted in regular tactics threads. Please confine this stuff to threads where the context is clear.

While nids don't work all shooty there are a few units that will work:

1) Devilguants in a mycetic spore (or coming out of a trygon hole)

Relatively cheap and can do a surprising amount of damage, especially on things with low armour. Also the units tend to be big, so you'll likely get another turn or two with shooting with them, unless your opponent ignores your CC troops and shoots at this unit instead. Which is a mistake.

2) Warriors with rending claws, toxin sacs and deathspitters

Pretty expensive but are very versatile and can deal a significant amount of ranged pain and also perform well in combat.

3) Pure power shooties

Things like zoans and hive guard just add to the raw ranged power of your force. Hive guard are great for taking out things like vypers and land speeders, which make use of cover. And Zoanthropes are simply deadly, they can. pen land raiders on a 3 or can take out handfuls of MEQs with each shot, they're also synapse creatures to boot.

Niiai wrote:How mutch S8+ can he have if all you field are MC's and warriors? It would make all if his str 7- weaponds quite redundant.

You would be surprised at how much S8+ stuff an IG army can bring to the table. I saw a list the other day, in 1,500 points he's got eight plasma guns, 12 meltas, and, on the three Vendettas, there are nine twin-linked lascannons and six heavy bolters. There you have 21 weapons that can one-shot a Warrior and put a wound an an MC very easily. Just the Vendettas will be evaporating a Warrior brood or an MC per turn.

Plus, the S7- weapons don't just vanish because you have T4/T6 multi-wound models. Since Warriors can't be equipped differently, except the one guy with the support weapon, you can't play the kind of wound allocation shenanigans that Tau Crisis suits (for example) can. That means any wounds scored pile up and kill models quickly. Carnifex broods have the same problem though being T6/Sv3 they are relatively proof against the heavy bolters.