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Pretty simple question, as it is in the title. Which tank do you think fill's the gaps best?


100 - Librarian w. Null Zone and Avenger

125 - Dreadnought with 2x TL.AutoCannon's

190 - (10) Tactical Marines w. Melter Gun, Combi-Melter and Plasma Cannon
75 - Razorback w. LC&TLPG

190 - (10) Tactical Marines w. Plasma Gun, Combi-Plasma and Multi-Melter
35 - Rhino

70 - Landspeeder w. Multi-Melter and Heavy Flamer
70 - Landspeeder w. Multi-Melter and Heavy Flamer

Then either:

120 - Predator w. Lascannon Sponsons

or

120 - Vindicator w. Dozor Blade


Also there's another 25 points to play with. Ideas? I was thinking a PF for the rhino squad but I'm not 100% sure about putting it on a model with a combi-plasma.

Ga.

I'm personally a fan of vinidicators. I think you need the pie plate more than you need the anti tank.

Id take the Predator. Those two lascannons are gonna be your only long ranged anti tank. Admittedly you have the speeders, but they are so fragile you cant really count on them doing anything. Also the Predator can park itself in some cover and happily hammer away while the Vindicator has to most likely expose itself to actually get to fire. Add to that the fact that a single weapon destroyed renders the Vindicator useless, and its no contest imo. Vindicators work best when you have several of them. A solitary Demo usually just get smoked or neutralized before it gets to do anything.



Thats my take on it anyway.

Thanks for the points guys.

I do like the predators anti-tank versatility. But I also feel that between the Tactical squads, Speeders and Dreadnought I have most armour values covered.

Does the vindicators versatility at taking on hoard/stars outweigh the predators ability to reliably reinforce my current unit choices?

Ga.

The vindi is S10 Ordnance so it still has a good chance at cracking AV14, assuming you're within range. You have enough long range anti-tank for 1000pts.

No more thoughts on it?

What kind of armies should I expect to see at 1000pts? What are the tool's I'll need to fight them?

Ga.

I did some tinkering with your list, what do you think?

Libriarian w/Null Zone and Avenger

Dreadnaught with x2 TLAC

x2 Tactical Squads w/ Melta Guns, Plasma Cannons
no upgrades for sgts
x2 Razorbacks w/ Lasplas and storm bolter

Predator w/ lascannon side sponsons AC turret, and storm bolter

AND

Vindicator! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!

Sgts at this point level are hardly worth upgrading with anything, unless you plan on using them for something spacific. Combat squad your tact squads and send the sgt, melta gunner and 3 bolter marines in the razorbacks for enemy/neutral objective grabbing and let the other 4 bolters and plasma cannon throw that plamsa! Dreadnaught obviosly should just hangout unless he might be able to contest a close objective then and only then i would move him. Pred should tank hunt, and vindi should use its fear factor to bottle neck the enemy and ovbiously obliterate anything in its path. be sure to stick the librarian with the combat squad you want to use to take away objective with. turn one for you should be all about killing vehicles! If you really want you could drop the dread and add a second pred. This list as is will give you

(4) lascannon shots a turn
possibly (6) autocannon
(2) Plamsa Cannon
and one pie plate of doom
Thats just all the range stuff

Predator gives you the best bang for the buck in the SM codex imo... The vendi is a great heavy though. Keep in mind that it's got one weapon and on a weapon destroyed it's worthless.

yeah, that is one BIG disadvantage of the vindi, but it does have a fear factor, once you put it into your deployment your enemy immediatly thinks of how best to deal with this "situation"

Hamani wrote:
What kind of armies should I expect to see at 1000pts? What are the tool's I'll need to fight them?

at 1,000pts here are the two armies I run:

Chaos Space Marines
HQ:
Demon Prince - MoN, Wings, Warptime - 175pts

Troops:
6x Plague Marines - Champion with Twin linked bolter, 2x melta guns, Rhino w/Demonic Posession - 233pts
6x Plague Marines - Champion with Twin linked bolter, 2x melta guns, Rhino w/Demonic Posession - 233pts

Heavy Support:
Vindicator - Twin Linked Bolter - 130pts
Vindicator - Twin Linked Bolter - 130pts

Summoned Demons:
Greater Demon - 100pts

Total: 1,001pts

Deathwing:

HQ:
Belial - TH/SS - 130pts

Troops:
5x DWT - TH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 235pts
5x DWT - TH/SS, Cyclone Missile Launcher - 235pts

Fast Attack:
3x Ravenwing Bikes - 2x Melta Guns - 140pts

Heavy Support:
Vindicator - Dozer Blade - 130pts
Vindicator - Dozer Blade - 130pts

Total: 1,000pts

think about what you would do to counter either list and that'll give a good idea of what your list needs in order to beat other 1,000pt lists out there, your key factors to remember are an even balance between anti-vehicle and anti-horde. your overall goal should be to make each component of your army an individual threat that the opponent cannont ignore, if anything on you list looks like a filler unit the enemy will ignore it and hit the linchpin of your army, i.e. the one unit that, if killed, pulls the plug on your chances at victory.

@The Thunder Child:

Thanks for looking over my list =] I understand you were trying to fit both tanks in, but I've spent a LONG time working the rest of the list to the point it is, trying to get the right balance of threats and flexibility. Plus the speeders are a KEY part of the list. I think the 2 speeders can achieve more than both tanks could individually. I'll usually be starting one on the table to threaten flanks and such like and drop podding one in late game for objective snatching.

@Mister Moon:

Your point about the predator being more 'durable' in terms of weapon destroyed results, that's very true. Its actually something I hadn't thought of previously. That in addition to its reliability to shoot, compared to the vindicators luck factor, makes me want to choose it.

@Brother Heinrich:

Thanks for taking the time to post your armies. They both look dangerous. As much as I was saying above that the predator is the best choice, I would actually want the vindicator against both of those lists. How do you feel? If you were playing against my army which tank would you rather I take (or not take)?

Thanks for all the input guys. Keep it comming.

Ga.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

*Deep striking the Landspeeder, not drop podding sorry.

Has anyone noticed that hamani can't take the razorback since it can maximumly take 6 models i would lose the razorback for a rhino and then it gives you an extra 40 points and with that 40 points you could take terminator armour and a storm shield on your libby.

Personally i would go with a vidicator but in this case i wouldn't, 1 vindicator dosen't do much because it has on weapon, the pretator has three weapons, 4 shots at all a high strength. the AC can pop low level armour tanks and the LCs can pop bigger things.

That is incorrect. The squad size does not matter when adding a Dedicated Transport. You dont have to field the squad with the transport at all really, you can however put a combat squad of the original squad in it to start.

madman12367 wrote:Has anyone noticed that hamani can't take the razorback since it can maximumly take 6 models i would lose the razorback for a rhino and then it gives you an extra 40 points and with that 40 points you could take terminator armour and a storm shield on your libby.

I combat squad into a 5 man squad with PC and a 5 man squad with Melta and comb-melta, joined by the libby, and ride in the Razorback.

I have always chosen Vindicators, they bring a great punch/ destraction onto the field. I dont ahve my codex handy but there main gun should be an ordanence weapon so you can lob it over terrain features. And to counter the weapon destroyed problem i always toss on a stormbolter or pintle mounted Missile Launcher

The Thunder Child wrote:That is incorrect. The squad size does not matter when adding a Dedicated Transport.

Bear in mind this varies from codex to codex. SM can indeed buy a razorback even for a ten-man squad, but (for example) DE can't buy a Venom for a squad over five models. Older versions of the SM codex had a similar restriction; I think Black Templars might still.

Tazz Azrael wrote:I have always chosen Vindicators, they bring a great punch/ destraction onto the field. I dont ahve my codex handy but there main gun should be an ordanence weapon so you can lob it over terrain features. And to counter the weapon destroyed problem i always toss on a stormbolter or pintle mounted Missile Launcher

Your opponent will pick the Cannon first usually, so adding other guns will basically still make it useless, you are just paying more points for the useless tank.

On topic, I lean towards the Predator for its versatility. The Vindicator cannon is great when it hits, but as most players will play, they will spread out their troops to counter the big template, while the Predator doesn't have such an issue. In the long run the Predator can target infantry and tanks, and not have to worry about scattering. In my experience with my SW Vindicator, it has scattered too much to do enough damage and that is against horde Orks! I have subquently traded it out for a two Predators.

As far as C:SM goes, the predator is the better buy. The 48" range of its weapons allows it to reach nearly any target, especially on a 4x4 board. That range also keeps it on the backline supporting your troops and far away from melta weapons and assault troops. The predator as long as it is not stunned, will fire and hit something virtually every turn. Finally, you can use rhinos or razorbacks as cover and shoot over the top of them with the turret.

The vindicator is much less reliable. Yes the S10, AP2 5" blast is really good, but its not going to hit every turn, realistically only about 40% of the time counting the times the scatter is less or equal to the firer's BS. Also the prevalence of cover really reduces the effectiveness. Also, it has to be really close to the target. Only having a 24" range means it must be much closer to the enemy where assault troops and melta guns are much more common. It also is more likely to expose its weaker side armor than a predator hugging the board edge. Finally, it has the risk of scattering onto your own troops, which can be devastating in such a small point game.

Lets also look at some list changes

100 - Librarian w. Null Zone and Avenger

125 - Dreadnought with 2x TL.AutoCannon's

95 - (5) Tactical Marines w. Melta Gun
75 - Razorback w. LC&TLPG

95 - (5) Tactical Marines w. Melta Gun
75 - Razorback w. LC&TLPG

95 - (5) Tactical Marines w. Melta Gun
75 - Razorback w. LC&TLPG

70 - Landspeeder w. Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer
70 - Landspeeder w. Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer

120 - Predator w. Lascannon Sponsons

Anti-GEQ: Avenger, LS HF
Anti-MEQ: Razorbacks, LS MM, Troop Melta, Avenger
Anti-TEQ/FNP: Razorbacks, LS MM, Troop Melta, Predator LC
Anti-tank AV10-11: Razorbacks, LS MM, Troop Melta, Predator, Dreadnought
Anti-tank AV12: Razorbacks, LS MM, Troop Melta, Predator, Dreadnought
Anti-tank AV13-14: LS MM, Troop Melta
Backfield Objective scoring: Razorbacks
Midfield Objective scoring: weak point
Pyschic Defense: Libby
Dig out units in cover: Avenger

I think this makes your army much stronger. You have more hulls to saturate your opponent's Anti-tank, and enough heavy weapons to down deep strikers or terminators quickly. You have enough melta to take land raiders. Where this list is lacking is in close combat and Anti-GEQ. The assualt problem is dealt with though careful application of fire. Hordes will be more difficult, however, you should still have enough firepower to take them. Finally, this list will scale up nicely to 1750 and above through the application of more dreadnoughts and predators

I like your suggestions Razorlead however C:SM cannot take either special or heavy weapon unless the tacs are a 10 man team, only give the SGT a combi which is 10 points single shot.
I also think the razors upgrade to stronus with lasplas is too expensive at +35pts, the TLHB is a nice weapon and its free.
For me what I think this list lacks, even at 1000 pts, is SOMETHING that can counterassault. Terminators are ideal for this however you could use a 10 man tac squad with fist or (cringe) a DCCW dread - reason I suggest is you WILL get enemy crawling over you and once they in base to base you cannot shoot them anymore, only charge in something to clear them out the old fashioned way - so as good as your speeder mounted HF are I really think you need to think about this - place to grab pts from IMO is downgrade at least 1 razor from the big guns.

@Razorlead:

Thanks for your comments. However other armies do Razorspam and MSU Control much better than C:SM does. The advantage of C:SM in the ability to take cheap heavy weapons, and then to combat squad them in Razorbacks and such. I'm effectively paying 85pts for a combat squad with PC. Tha'ts value for money if you ask me, and where the strength of the codex lies. I like all your points for the predator though, I'm leaning more and more that way all the time.


@Loricatus Aurora:

You're correct that this list is a little light on assault. However the flexibility of tactical marines compensates for this. You shoot the Orks and assault the Tau. That's what marines do, play to the enemies weakness. I am considering spending the last 25pts on a PF for the Rhino sergeant, just to help tip some of the combats in my favor but then again they shouldn't really be in an assault they're going to loose anyway. I'll be adding a LR with TH/SS at higher point levels =]

Also your, not really giving the Stronos pattern razorback enough credit for my liking. It's possibly the most flexible tank for the points cost.