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'ello all.

Last time I really played 40K was around the time dark millenium was out, when we still had wargear cards. I played a couple of games of 4th ed, but have been out of the game for years!

I've decided recently that I want to pick it up again, and would like to get around to the GT at some point. My main thrust hobbywise is to get a 1500 point list organised and tinker around with that for the time being, picking up extra units as I go along.

One thing I've noticed is that there's a hell of a lot of cheese involved in a lot of the tournament army lists I've been reading. That is something I really don't like. That, and the prevalance of every other line in an army list containing the word "melta" - there's just no character to them, and I think that would really put me off returning.

That isn't to say that I don't appreciate what works and what doesn't, but I really don't think I'd enjoy fielding an army that has no sense of character or place. It just wouldn't be playing the game in the spirit it was intended.

See below for my jumping off point.


1500 Space Marine List (1497 actual)

HQ - Librarian - Jump pack 125pts

Troops 10 Marines* - 180pts
Troops 10 Marines* - 180pts
Troops 10 Marines* - 180pts
* I have reserved 10 points for each squad to equip the sergeant, or purchase one of the heavy or special weapons that isn't free.

Troops 6 Scouts, 1 Sergeant - Sniper rifles, Camo, Heavy weapon -132pts

Fast Attack 10 Assault Marines - Sergeant has a power weapon - 205pts
Fast Attack 3 Landspeeders - Typhoon Launchers - 270pts

Dedicated Transport 3 Razorbacks - 1 Assault Cannon and 2 Lascannon equipped - 225pts


Notes: I have been thinking about removing the razorback weapons and using the points to buy a vanilla dreadnought. I have also been considering swapping the landspeeders for a bike squad.

The main thinking points behind the army were that 2 in 3 missions are objective based, and in one of those there will be between 3 and 5 objectives to hold. I wanted enough troops to hold locations, but also enough units to either support the troops or deny other locations, either by slaughtering enemy troop choices or settling nearby objectives.

1500 points doesn't go as far as I thought it would. I am against racking up nearly 1/5th of my army value on a command squad and captain. Feel no pain looks good, but doesn't really work against everything that's going to get thrown at them. I went for a librarian instead, hoping to force dome them as they move across any open space, and smite prior to assault.

I don't know if I've got enough heavy weapons in there that are of any real use.

With the tactical squads tactics would probably involve breaking squads down and lumping them en masse in razorbacks. I could take the heavies inside and plant them on an objective with the other squads tucked behind the razorbacks as they advance, then take those elsewhere if the razorbacks haven't kicked the bucket, but I'm not sure how they fare in reality. Anyone with any experience of using razorbacks would be handy!

EDIT - Also considering swapping out the scouts. They don't fit in the razorbacks, and I didn't think about the other 3 squads I create when I split my tactical squads down. The scouts were there to sit on a home objective, but 3 combat squads may work just as well.

I'd have 135 points to work with, which means I can go for:

A vindicator - probably end up more as a bullet magnet though.
Dreadnought with weapon upgrades
Thunderfire, although it sticks out from the rest of the army in terms of character
Whirlwind
2 Vanilla Predators or one tooled up.


Vindicator would be nice, but I imagine ultimately a distraction. Predator would be nice also. At the moment, I'm swinging for the dread.

Edit 2 - The other option is to be be a bit of a B*****d and swap the scouts for another libby. Although I imagine no one with any sense will want that assault squad to live very long. 2 sets of smite would be cool. That said - it's borederline camenbert.

Last time I really played 40K was around the time dark millenium was out, when we still had wargear cards.

My goodness, this was in 1520 AD or so.

Well, two Tacticals w/ Razorbacks and one Sniper squad should suffice as scoring units.
This frees some points to get two auto/las Predators.
By the way, the Assault Sergeant should have a power fist,
since power fists are Dreadnought insurance.

Phayse wrote:
One thing I've noticed is that there's a hell of a lot of cheese involved in a lot of the tournament army lists I've been reading. That is something I really don't like. That, and the prevalance of every other line in an army list containing the word "melta" - there's just no character to them, and I think that would really put me off returning.

If you dont like tournament armies, dont go to tournaments

Just saying, because although a GT isnt considered "competitive" by some elitist pricks, you WILL see razorspam, lash, mech guard, TWC... competitive armies really. Any space wolf player worth his salt WILL have 15 missile launcher long fangs in his army, because for the price there's really no reason not to take them. If you're not willing to build lists like that, and you come up against one, you will lose. May sound harsh, but that's how it is.

Besides, you can build characterful yet competitive lists with a bit of thought.

I would maybe drop the razorback options and play the tactical squads as MM bunkers, meaning they drive into midfield with a multimelta and then sit back firing from the rhino top hatch. I do realise you didn't like the word melta, but having some melta is a must with the resilience boost tanks got in 5th ed.

Also, don't take smite and force dome for your librarian, they really aren't great powers. Null Zone wrecks some armies (Daemons first and foremost) and avenger is generally the best second power. As Wuetenfuc said, power fist for the assault marine sergeant is a good investment.

the Throne of Skulls (previously GT) is slightly less competitive now. And i think after the first couple, will probably get even less competitive. There will obviously still be those people who go there just to win all 5 games and are not bothered about how their army looks, or who/what they play.

With your list. I would definatly suggest taking out the Scouts. You have three Tac squads, which is more than enough for taking objectives. I don't know what to suggest you add though. Unupgraded Preds just have an Autocannon right, i personally like taking things in pairs. So out of your only real options that is my 'favourite' but maybe not the best. Thunderfire probably works best on its own out of those choices. As you don't have enough points for a Drop Dread. If you go for a Dread, the best option is probably the TL AC dread, but that needs converting (probably using the Agis defence line Autocannons...)

You could always have a Chaplain, or are they 125 points without the jump pack?

Just saying, because although a GT isnt considered "competitive" by some elitist pricks, you WILL see razorspam, lash, mech guard, TWC... competitive armies really. Any space wolf player worth his salt WILL have 15 missile launcher long fangs in his army, because for the price there's really no reason not to take them. If you're not willing to build lists like that, and you come up against one, you will lose. May sound harsh, but that's how it is.

Yeah, you'll some of these lists at a GT. They'll give you a hard time.

*grumble grumble*

Cheese was one of the main reasons I stopped in the first place, Beyond a small circle of people who played in the spirit of things I ran into far too many people who played, and collected to win, having a laugh didn't come into it and it was absolutely horrific to watch grown men revert to 10 year olds over interpretation of rules! There was just zero fun to it. You could turn up and play - if you won you got a mouthful of abuse about beardy army choices, from someone whose list was so engineered NASA would have paid for it, and if you lost they didn't hesitate to remind you about how unbeatable thier list was.

Maybe it's not worth picking up again if people are still working in that mindset, I mean, the way they'd act about it you'd think it was all about your worth as a human being. I can imagine being that anal about your profession but this is a game- it's little toy soldiers on a tabletop - get a grip - it's like analogue counterstrike kids.

*/grumble*

After some thought, the scouts are out. Razorbacks may go in favour of rhinos. May drop the libby altogether in favour of someone more CC oriented, or supplement a Chappy into the squad ( by the way IC and squads - can a squad have more than 1 IC? the rulebook advises you can group ICs together to make a unit of ICs, but nothing about multiples in a normal unit).

With the points from the scouts, I wonder if it's worth buying something to work with the assault squad. If they aren't hopping from cover to cover, or tagging onto the razorbacks they're a single unit on thier own. Maybe 2 vanilla preds or a vindicator is a good idea. Even if they don't end up doing any damage themselves as long as they attract fire that was destined for other squads that do perform, then maybe they've served a purpose.

As for meltas - it's not that I'm dead against them, I just really don't like the idea of spamming them, even if it's only from a hobby/sanity point of view - I don't mind fannying around ordering bitz off the net, but I'm not going to be ordering and converting 27,000,000x combi melta.

Completely forgot about land speeders - do they tend to attract fire moreso than other things during a game? How someone might spend his shooting phase might give me a bit of insight into what I'm going to sub in, After all, if there's better targets on offer I might be able to get away with tooling up just one pred.

Too much thinky.

I wouldn't worry too much about cheese. If you go to Throne of Skulls, you may or may not come up against really cheesy armies (i didn't, although i was unfortunately using a fairly 'cheesy' army myself.....wasn't even my army ) But as long as you have fun, thats all that really matters. And in fact, you could probably optimise a seemingly standard Marine list to work very very well and actually end up beating 'power builds' and upsetting them. But really, unless you get drawn against 5 really horrible opponents (which i don't think can really happen, on the whole most people are there for the same reasons, to play 40k and have fun, and if you can win, great) Your never going to find anything with any kind of competitive edge to it, (any sport, even sunday league football, everyone is still wanting to win, even if it is for fun. really any kind of hobby that involves 'games' will have that competitiveness to it to some extent.) I just think its really not something to worry too much about.

Rhino's could benefit your list, especially if you listen to the multi-melta bunker idea. I personally have never tried it. give you a lot more points to play with.

How much Space Marine stuff do you currently own? I think its a case of playing a few games, finding out what units you like, what works well etc. Then going from there.
Your idea about the distraction for the Assault Squad is quite good. They are essentially your main damage dealing unit. So need as much of the unit as possible to get into combat. As i said before, i think a Chaplain could be useful. As could Shrike, although his fleet wouldn't benefit the rest of the army so much.

Generally speaking, I find its great fun to build competitive lists, or just write lists in general. I mainly play with 2-3 friends, and we do tend to use lists that some might consider "cheesy". Part of the fun for me is taking my brand new idea to the field and testing it out, discussing its proficiencies and shortfalls when it does well and having a good laugh when it fails utterly. Lists are constantly evolving, and you keep swapping little things around and juggling units until you find that build that is "just right". For me, an army list is never finished, it can always be improved upon. When I play, its testing the lists that I have written and refining them further, until I'm pleased with the results.

But lists can be fun as well as competitive, like TWC lists. I sometimes play a list with 4 thunderwolf lords that run around and eat stuff, its a fun list to play yet can still be modelled to be characterful, as can any army.

As far as stuff owned, had a bit of a revival period last year before my wife brought home kittens ( which is partly the reason it never took off then. Kittens and marines do not mix.)

Custom Cappy Lightning claws with aux launchers (A la master of the forge blogs Vulkan flamer fist)/ Regular equipment - yay magnets
2 Tac Sq
1 Terminator Sq
1 Assault Sq
1 Scout squad
Redeemer ( Completely chuffing pointless, but as the kids would say it looks boss)

enough for a small game.

Just had a look at the wolf gunline list in this forum. Scary indeed. Maybe troop transport army isn't the way to go for tourny.

Which wolf gunline list?

And the land raider can be made into a normal godhammer pattern with a couple of lascannons, although the redeemer does work in certain builds.

Jabbdo wrote:Which wolf gunline list?

And the land raider can be made into a normal godhammer pattern with a couple of lascannons, although the redeemer does work in certain builds.

This one!

On the redeemer front, I was planning a DOW2 Angel forge style modular table, something with patchy LOS - at the time it made sense, unfortunately at the same time, being able to swap the sponsons wasn't thought about - D'oh!

Phayse wrote:As far as stuff owned, had a bit of a revival period last year before my wife brought home kittens ( which is partly the reason it never took off then. Kittens and marines do not mix.)

Custom Cappy Lightning claws with aux launchers (A la master of the forge blogs Vulkan flamer fist)/ Regular equipment - yay magnets
2 Tac Sq
1 Terminator Sq
1 Assault Sq
1 Scout squad
Redeemer ( Completely chuffing pointless, but as the kids would say it looks boss)

enough for a small game.

Just had a look at the wolf gunline list in this forum. Scary indeed. Maybe troop transport army isn't the way to go for tourny.

So yeah, you've still got a lot of branching out to do, do you have people you can play and use proxy against? That might help you in the first 2/3 games deciding what to buy next.

A Termie Assault squad in a Redeemer would be a decent unit to add.
Then I'd go with 2 full Tacticals in Razorbacks or Rhinos, not more