Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If a unit including an independent character has Paroxysm cast on them and then the independent character leaves the unit, is the independent character's weapon and ballistic skill still at 1?

This hadn't dawned on me until a necron player at a local gaming club brought it up. Prior to this I'd only ever put it on a unit including Logan Grimnar before charging, who hits on 3's in close combat anyway. The effects only affect the unit and if the character leaves it's no longer part of the unit. I'd say RAW dictates that the independent character becomes unaffected, despite how unfair it seems.

Thanks in advance for any helpful input.

A quote of the relevant rules text would be helpful.

Though the IC is no longer part of the unit he was when the power reduced his WS and BS ... he doesn't get them back till the nids turn starts.

I'd like to agree with you Tri, considering I always run at least one dude with Paroxysm, but I can't seem to justify it beyond rationale.

Okay, steelmage, it's really only concerning the Paroxysm rules on pg. 62 of the Tyranids codex. "[The] unit must reduce its Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill to 1 until the beginning of the Hive Tyrant's next turn."

For reference, the Independent character rule on pg. 48 of the 5th Edition 40k rulebook reads "An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." This renders it no longer part of the unit that has its WS and BS reduced.

Reading through the Paroxysm entry again, I wonder what happens to the unit if the Hive Tyrant no longer has a next turn. If she dies is the power lost? Does it continue until the beginning of the Tyranid turn or longer?

It really says "Hive Tyrant"? Not "Tyranid player's"? That's weird.

I think it doesn't apply, unfortunately. The same principle applies to units with ICs got hit with fortune, and the IC moves out - general consensus is that it no longer applies.

And I would give you the power until your next turn, regardless of the Tyrant's condition. After all, that is "It's next turn", even if it didn't live to see it!

TheRedArmy wrote:It really says "Hive Tyrant"? Not "Tyranid player's"? That's weird.

I think it doesn't apply, unfortunately. The same principle applies to units with ICs got hit with fortune, and the IC moves out - general consensus is that it no longer applies.

And I would give you the power until your next turn, regardless of the Tyrant's condition. After all, that is "It's next turn", even if it didn't live to see it!

difference between eldar powers and Paroxysm is when the effect takes place.

Doom, fortune, guide ... the effect happens when ever the unit is wounded, taking a save, or shooting. No longer part of the unit no longer effected by the rerolls (join it then you get effected)

Paroxysm has an immediate effect; every one in the unit has their BS and WS reduced till the beginning of the Hive Tyrant's next turn. You may leave the unit but you've already reduced your WS and BS.

Hmm. You make a compelling argument. I can't think of a power that works in a similar manner to Paroxysm, so don't have anything to compare it to.

Actually, I think I'd give it to you right now.

Here we go again. Here's a thread where the subject was been thoroughly discussed, where both camps' point-of-views were defined by Yakface and how neither side is right or wrong.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/338492.page

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote:
Doom, fortune, guide ... the effect happens when ever the unit is wounded, taking a save, or shooting. No longer part of the unit no longer effected by the rerolls (join it then you get effected)

This is where I think you're wrong and how Yakface puts it - the 'Snapshot' effect. All Eldar powers are done at the beginning of the turn. That is when the 'snapshot' of the unit is taken. Then, no matter what happens to its constituent parts, those models are still effected. It is not a 'Remains in Play' power that gets called everytime they take a wound. They had a power casted on them, and now they have an effect. It's not like the Farseer is casting Doom every time you roll to wound your enemy. He casted it once. And the enemy carries the effects.

Tri wrote:
Paroxysm has an immediate effect; every one in the unit has their BS and WS reduced till the beginning of the Hive Tyrant's next turn. You may leave the unit but you've already reduced your WS and BS.

Paroxysm has the same wording as Guide and Fortune. They are governed by the same rationale.

I don't believe that an IC should lose a power/effect when they leave a unit that was affected as a whole. I am in the 'snapshot' camp. This way of thinking reduces problems and doesn't cause any unnecessary house rules. Whereas the 'duration' effect that Yakface and a few others in the thread above subscribe to, you must create caveats for your ruling - you must complicate an issue unnecessarily.

For instance: You have two IC's joined and they have Fortune cast on them. Then they split. Where does it go and why? From the 'snapshot' camp, everything works out just fine. From the 'duration' camp, you must come up with interpretations of rules that aren't even there. (see Nosferatu's explanation of 'child units' and 'parent units').

Give that thread above a read.

Actually the parent and child was to explain the situation more clearly; it never purported to be there.

the main issue is that you target the unit, not the IC. Once the IC leaves the unit he is no longer the target.

puma713 that's an interesting point.

My point is that in both cases only the unit is effected, when then IC leaves he is no longer effected. However the IC already has dropped his WS and BS value. Saying he becomes his normal WS and BS is the same as saying that any hit, wound or armour save rerolls don't count from when he was in the unit. In all cases they've happened and stay happened.

Nah, the actual process of 'suffering a wound' reduces that stat for the Ic so it sticks.

It's the freeing of the miasma that restores the ICs stats for a fluffy explanation. You already have the raw as such

ChrisCP wrote:Nah, the actual process of 'suffering a wound' reduces that stat for the Ic so it sticks.

It's the freeing of the miasma that restores the ICs stats for a fluffy explanation. You already have the raw as such

? That makes no sense you agree and then clam raw on the reverse when there is none ...

Stats are changed by Paroxysm ... they don't change back till the start of the tyrants turn. Matter not that he's left the unit he's already been changed to WS/BS 1

Suffering a wound "If the result is lower than the Sv value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and the model suffers a wound" Pg 20
'Cos this only happens with multiple-wound models "When such a multiple-wound model suffers an unsaved wound, it loses one Wound from its profile." Pg 26
A loss from the profile is an actual change to the profile and as such is permanent.

Paroxsym effects a unit, as the Ic is no longer part of the target unit 'X' that it was joined too it no longer suffers from a 'unit wide' effect. Apparently one of the non-obvious perks of being an IC in 40k.

ChrisCP wrote:Suffering a wound "If the result is lower than the Sv value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and the model suffers a wound" Pg 20
'Cos this only happens with multiple-wound models "When such a multiple-wound model suffers an unsaved wound, it loses one Wound from its profile." Pg 26
A loss from the profile is an actual change to the profile and as such is permanent.

Paroxsym effects a unit, as the Ic is no longer part of the target unit 'X' that it was joined too it no longer suffers from a 'unit wide' effect. Apparently one of the non-obvious perks of being an IC in 40k.

Yes it effects the unit and drops the unit and IC to WS and BS to 1. Does leaving the unit change this? no as they have already been changed. When will he return to normal? at the beginning of the tyrants turn.

Otherwise this power fails the moment they get into close combat and the IC is treated as his own unit.

'treated as' is different from 'counts as' otherwise they'd take their own morale checks too iirc.
Paroxsysm reads "..automatically hits a single...That unit must reduce it's WS & BS to 1 until the beginning..." 'Nids page 62

One targets the 'unit' the unit happens to have an Ic attached, once the Ic leaves the 'unit' it's no longer the 'unit' and paroxsyms continues and stops accordingly.

Tri wrote:
Otherwise this power fails the moment they get into close combat and the IC is treated as his own unit.

This is one of the biggest problems of the 'duration' point-of-view. If your IC is treated in all respects as his own unit, even with Fortune casted on him, he doesn't get it when in melee.

Or, if you don't want your IC to be affected by Paroxysm, Murderous Hurricane, Weaken Resolve, etc., etc. all you have to do is detach him from the unit. I don't believe this is the intent of the rule - for IC's to simply shrug off powers by leaving a unit.

The duration view is much more cumbersome and unkempt. The snapshot view is universal - you don't have to make any changes and it is easy to follow. Probably why I started playing it that way to begin with and when I heard the opposite point-of-view, I was a little taken aback.