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It seems many of us Dark Eldar players have had trouble with IG parking lots and chimera trains. On my local scene 75% of players are Marines or IG, and while I can get close to topping IG, my last few lists repeatedly fell short by just a hair. With this list, the idea is that there is so many vehicles, they do not have enough anti-tank to spread around, while an abundance of darklight weapons dismounts them, and abuses them via Dark Eldars mobility. Please leave feedback as I have not seen many lists that are built with 12 vehicles and would love to hear your ideas.
12 AV 10 open-topped vehs against IG is not hard to take down. Remember, anti-tank isn't needed to take down raiders - bolters, storm bolters, heavy bolters, and mutli-lasers will do just fine.
I think beasts and Grotesques are your best way to take on mass armor. The higher str and number of attacks will give you a much better chance of punching armor than dark light.
To take our only 1 chimera with dark light - statistically you need 13 shots. Now add up the points for a IG vet squad with meltas and autocannon in a Chimera - then add up your cheapest way to get 13 dark light shots - it doesn't stack up.
If the local meta in your area is heavy vehs, look into WWP grots and beasts. With an abundance of hammy's giving pain tokens and the strong possibility of assaulting out of the WWP before getting shot, I think this might be something worth trying.
While I agree that the vehicles will go down, do you think the advantage of being able to take away their mobility is worth it? They can't take out everything even if they go first, and I I go first they will already have enough stunned that many of my vehicles will be unharmed. By having more vehicles they have to slit fire, and less concentrated fire means more survives.
My problem with the WWP is having to roll for reserves. This is inconsistent meaning that you can lose games purely based on a few dice rolls, plus your opponent can see your strategy and avoid the location your units will be deploying from.
You don't design a list to bring 80% from reserve, you design one that brings ~30-40% from reserve. Basically deploy your long range units, and reserve your CC units. Declare jump packers as deep striking, but make them come through the WWP just to screw with your opponent and surprise him when they assault instead of deep strike shooting.
Also, use 2 WWPS, so you can use either one of them to come in through.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/16 03:07:54
My list=Full shooting early in game as well as first turn assaults. More mobility to take and a 24" contest objective move with vehicles.
WWP list=Less shooting early. At the whim of dice rolls, opponent knows where to expect your troops which assault at the earliest turn two, when at this point they have mobilized in order to counter the WWP and have been able to take apart the piecemeal half of your army that started on the board.
I would say against IG the comparison speaks for itself. On top of that more mobile and diverse armies will eat the WWP style to pieces. What is the logic to overcome these WWP problems?
L'Etat C'Est Moi wrote:What is the logic to overcome these WWP problems?
My random thoughts on how to make a successful WWP list...
2 WWPs, one with a Harlequin troops to make shooting nearly impossible, the other in a raider (wracks or trueborn with blasters in the raider). This also gives 2 locations to pop out of. If you go first and get the raider portal off, you can wait on dropping the Harli portal in case you can find better positioning.
Going first is good, Baron is strongly recommended.
Anything that comes out of the WWP needs to be able to assault from 21" (in case you go second and your raider gets shot down). This means Hellions and Beastmasters are your only options. Personally I run 2 units of Beastmasters, and 1 unit of Hellions with Baron.
Beastmaster unit is composed of: Beastmaster x 5, Khymera x 10, Razorwing x 6. It takes 6 casualties to cause a LD check, and if all you get hit with is under str 6, it takes 30 wounds to cause the check. Anything 6+ goes to the 4++ invul save from the Khymera. You also get 86 attacks coming out of the WWP on the charge.
The rest of your army needs to be able to take out AV12+. Blessed Hull Land Raiders and Furiouso Dreadnoughts are your major concern. Any Walker needs to be shot down. Just about anything else the beastmasters can clean up. Most things have a AV10 rear armor, and your beastmasters will make short work of them. The rest of your list needs to be tailored to handle those annoying mechs.
If you can find room for wyches, haywire grenades are your friend. Same for scourges with haywire blasters.
1 unit of warriors with a dark lance is real nice for sitting back and camping an objective.
You will quickly enter a Talos vs Ravager debate, I say Ravagers because you need the DLs in case you go second and your Talos won't make it across the board. You want to give your opponent lots of things to shoot at on the board, and reserving Talos along with beastmasters makes his job too easy to pick on your fire base.
L'Etat C'Est Moi wrote:My list=Full shooting early in game as well as first turn assaults. More mobility to take and a 24" contest objective move with vehicles.
WWP list=Less shooting early. At the whim of dice rolls, opponent knows where to expect your troops which assault at the earliest turn two, when at this point they have mobilized in order to counter the WWP and have been able to take apart the piecemeal half of your army that started on the board.
I would say against IG the comparison speaks for itself. On top of that more mobile and diverse armies will eat the WWP style to pieces. What is the logic to overcome these WWP problems?
You were asking for ways to deal with IG and Marine parking lots - I can't think of a better way than WWP.
Break it down like this:
your list = 18 dark lance shots - 1st turn this will be all you can shoot, blasters won't be in range. 18 dark lances won't even statistically guarantee you 2 wrecked chimeras. DE cannot out shoot opposing armor - armor is by far the DE's biggest weakness.
1 max unit of beasts or grotesgues coming out of the WWP will wreck face. With only 1 or 2 units coming out of it, your opponents cannot avoid everything, if anything you can force them to move away from it and bunch up for your remaining forces.
If you roll well enough to reliably take out armor with DE shooting then I want to take a trip with you to Vegas.
My original lists were beastmaster and Harliquin based. I agree that the total tarpit of the beasts is nice, but even on the charge you will be getting minimal glancing blows on vehicles. Plus when pie plates or thunderhammers come out you really pay for it.
Also, every blaster should be in range. 12" Deploy+12" Move+3" Pivot+2" Disembark means that you can shoot up their entire deployment zone, and preferably placed in cover. If you opponent goes first and moves things forward you have lances take out the back stuff and have the blaster move forward 6" and shoot from inside the vehicle.
Remember the goal is not to table them but to steal a victory. If I can prevent their shooting each turn, and for this even a 1 on a glancing table will do, then my vehicles will stay in the air and continue shooting and maneuvering. Vehicles of theirs will be worn down by shooting, losing guns, being immobilized, and some wrecked. With six mobile troops I can grab objectives or turbo boost 24" and contest whatever they are camping on.
Also, anyone with armor who sees a list like this fears the dark lance spam and puts things in reserve so they don't die, meaning there are less targets early and thus my full shooting has a greater effect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/02/16 15:22:29
Actually they don't fear your DL spam cause they have more firepower than you, better armor, and better saves. Don't expect a parking lot or razorbacks spam to deploy any differently.
Could just be local meta-game, but here they are pretty feared.
Having all vehicles is better than having fewer as they have to spread fire and their anti-infantry is useless. If I had only three or six they would be dead for sure. Having more means more lives.
What IG list can target with 12 AT units turn one? Melta-vets are out of range unless I went first, in which case the issue has been mitigated. Space Marines are even more disadvantaged in this logic than IG.
I would change the Trueborn's Raiders to Venoms, then you can add in the other blaster they dont have, and if your trueborn or any other lance pops a transport, your venom can drop a good amount of poisoned shots onto the squshy bits that came out from inside.
I know you brought the raiders for their extra dark lance, but if you can drop it to save the points difference and split it between the venoms for hte 2nd splinter cannon and the trueborn for the second blaster, you haven't lost anything, you have actually gained alot of anti infantry shooting which you will need whenever you pop the transports.
Kabal of Isha's Fall 12000PTs
Best DE advice ever!!!
Dashofpepper wrote:Asking how to make a game out of a match against Dark Eldar is like being in a prison cell surrounded by 10 big horny guys who each outweigh you by 100 pounds and asking "What can I do to make this a good fight?" You're going to get violated, and your best bet is to go willingly to get it over with faster.
And on a totally different topic:
Dashofpepper wrote:Greetings Mephiston! My name is Ghazghkull Thraka, and today you will be made my bitch.
L'Etat C'Est Moi wrote:What IG list can target with 12 AT units turn one? Melta-vets are out of range unless I went first, in which case the issue has been mitigated. Space Marines are even more disadvantaged in this logic than IG.
Really?
A standard mech IG list
3 vendettas
2 squads of 2 hydras
1 manticore
4 vet squads in chimera with autocannon
(and some other things to round it out)
That's 14 ways at at least 36 inches and str6 to take out raiders/ravagers. Most of it is BS 4 or twin-linked. And with every result on the damage chart +1 due to your open tops.
Dark eldar cannot win a shooting match with IG.
Thank you Vrakk, it makes me a sad panda seeing the meta at other locations when here I see nothing but GT level SW, IG, BA, and Mechdar lists in every round of every tourney
L'Etat C'Est Moi wrote:What IG list can target with 12 AT units turn one? Melta-vets are out of range unless I went first, in which case the issue has been mitigated. Space Marines are even more disadvantaged in this logic than IG.
Really?
A standard mech IG list
3 vendettas
2 squads of 2 hydras
1 manticore
4 vet squads in chimera with autocannon
(and some other things to round it out)
That's 14 ways at at least 36 inches and str6 to take out raiders/ravagers. Most of it is BS 4 or twin-linked. And with every result on the damage chart +1 due to your open tops.
Dark eldar cannot win a shooting match with IG.
OY. This would utterly murder your list OP.
Your list is good, but DE really can't handle Mech IG (most things can't)....
I recently played Mech DE vs IG, it is a hard match up for DE but not unwinable.
My list is pretty close to the OPs but I bring razorwings for the alpha strike against LF squads. Doesnt work well against IG execpt for obliterating thier troops in objective missions.
IG list was ~
3 x 2 vendettas w/ bolters 3 x 2 hydras 3 x 2 laz cannon vets/ in chimera 1 x command /rides in valk
It was a kill points missing and it ended 5 to 1 in his favor the problem for me was all the 2x vehical units. I could pop one but then he would reposition to give me hell if I wanted to kill off the other. FFs are a godsend in this match up I dont know how many times I forced multiple units to shoot at one raider just because saves were made.
I still think IG has the advantage and always will but I also believe the DE list can be a direct counter to Wolfstar if you include razorwings which makes it a competitive build. 4x shatterfield alpha strike DESTROY longfangs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/02/17 17:11:11
Out of curiosity do you move up 12 turn one then skirt around moving 6 and shooting or move up 12 dump out and shoot? Or is this a situational choice for you?
I won't pay a penny more since my units are legal (warmaster is a GW game). If they continue to preform for me, I would use my store credit from wins in tourneys to slowly change over to the official models since my tyranid-khymera are quite ugly, and my beastmasters can always revert back to hellions. The unead vultures look perfect, so I doubt I'll switch out the razorwings ever.
I used to use Razorwings but my meta didn't have enough foot stuff for me to use the extra points over a Ravager.
I have not seen mech 1850 lists that were build that opposing, and I agree that against what you are posting this wouldn't stand a change. Besides Clay Williams, does anyone think this viable or see changes that could be made to the air dark eldar without the portal?
I usually will move twelve and drop the guys off in cover unless I know that moving only six will put me in range.
Ravager, dark lances (ff) 115
Ravager, dark lances (ff) 115
Ravager, dark lances (ff) 115
The total is 1848. It gives you 2 big assault elements - grotesques on the charge are a beast and 4 of them have more wounds than a squad of 9 wracks, and are harder to wound and have higher strength.
I actually made Grotesques when I was converting everything but shrugged them off as useless after looking over their points and rules. After seeing your list I did some mathhammer and realized how much I under rated them.
Tomorrow I have a game with a parking lot IG guy (won my club's double round robin last fall) and I will be utilizing suggestions there, and will get back how they worked out.
Unfortunately the Guard player's clutch went out and he chose to not walk a mile in the blizzard to play (I found another IG guy to play with this weekend though). Fortunately two other guys were down to game. To add points to my list Drazhar was added as well as 2 twenty man warrior squads. Due to the mission I used trueborn rather than grotesques.
This is less than fully detailed due to this not being the planned game.
10,000 Point Fight Through The Brood
The table is 9 x 5 with the Space Marine/Tau player (Erik) in one corner and the Dark Eldar (Tony) in the other. Both have 2,500 point armies. 5,000 points of Tyranids (Tyler) occupy a two floor fortress in the center of the table. There is one objective on the top floor of fortress; this is the primary objective. Four more secondary objectives are placed sixteen inches in diagonally from the corners of the table. One point is awarded for every kill point gained, as well as for every secondary objective held at the start of your turn (beginning turn two). Every turn you hold the primary objective you earn four points. Troops must hold objectives, with the exception being that any Tyranid unit may hold the primary objective.
Erik 1
Space Marine and Tau move forward after deploying defensively. Mass firing kills several gaunts in cover as well as wounding a Tyranid warrior.
Tony 1
Three vehicles move flat out along the long table edge toward an objective and another goes along the short edge to claim another. Both Warrior squads move, with one sitting on an objective while in cover. Drazhar moves forward, receiving cover. One gaunt brood is killed and another injured.
Tyler 1
Mass shooting from a Carnifex and Biovores kills 14 Dark Eldar warriors who fail their leadership and run . Shooting kills a Tau stealth suit and a few fire warriors.
Erik 2
No objectives held. More shooting kills gaunts. A tactical squad captures an objective.
Tony 2
2 objectives held. Shooting leaves only two gaunts left in a brood, puts 3 wounds on Old One Eye, and kills 5 Tyranid Warriors. 1 of the three raiders moves flat out onto the far objective while the other two fire killing a land speeder and destroying another’s weapon. Drazhar charges into combat leaving only the Prime left in the Warrior brood..
Tyler 2
Main objective held. Ymrgals show up in a building held by Dark Eldar. Biovores kill 12 warriors in cover who pass their leadership. A Zanthrope immobilizes a Land Raider. Tyranid Warriors kill 3 assault marines with shooting and then kills the last 2 in combat. Drazhar kills the warrior prime in combat and then gets hit by six ripper swarms who fail to do anything other than prevent him from moving the rest of the game. The Ymrgals miss combat by an inch.
Erik 3
One objective held. More wounds given to Tyranid Warriors by shooting. A squad of gaunts is finished off by a tactical squad. A Missile launcher shot scatters onto a crisis suit who is saved by a shield drone.
Tony 3
Three objectives held. Two raiders and a venom move to the top of the fortress to contest the primary objective. Shooting the Ymrgals is unsuccessful with only a few dying. Shooting does though kill Old One Eye, a Zanthrope, and a Carnifex. Drazhar continues to wade through the rippers. The squad of warriors which broke is still on the table.
Tyler 3
No objectives held. Took a gun off a venom with Biovores shots and killed a space marine sniper. The Tyranid Warriors charge the terminators and the combat does not break, with the Warriors taking several fearless wounds. Ymrgals eat the Dark Eldar Warriors like nothing. Monstrous creatures wreck two raiders which were on top of the fortress.
With class the next day and papers still to write the game is called at eleven. All parties agree Dark Eldar would have continued to lead through the rest of the game.
Tony 10
Tyler 9
Erik 2
While this game did not test grotesques as I originally planned, it was a very fun game as well as the largest which I have ever played. Dominating Tyranids obviously is not a surprise, but the extreme mobility of a mass vehicle list allowed me to A) capture objectives much faster than everyone else, B) outmaneuver the space marines who though they targeted my vehicles could not damage them, and C) allowed me to rapidly contest objectives preventing the Tyranids from getting another 4 points for the center objective.
Once I actually play a guard player I will report the results.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2011/03/04 21:44:31
I finally met up with a Guard Player. A rough summary of the game is below...
Spoiler:
This is from memory, and thus low in detail, as I was not planning on this game occurring, also explaining the low level of terrain. The game was 1500 points with the war of attrition (victory points) mission from the battle missions book. His list was a Straken and squad in a Valkyrie, 2 Vets in Chimeras, 1 Platoon w/ Mortars and Autocannons, Punisher, Executioner, and a Medusa.
I ran 3 Haemonculi each with 4 Grotesques in Raiders, 3 Warrior squads of 5 with Blasters and Venoms, and 3 Ravagers.
The deployment is long halves and looked like this...
The mortars and Punisher are hidden behind the silo, autocannons are in a ruin next to the Medusa, the Executioner, is next to the Vet Chimeras, and the main Guardsman platoons are combined behind them.
I have three line of sight blocking formations of Raider, Venom, and Ravager.
IG1-Shooting is hurt by the silos blocking shooting lanes. The Punisher destroys a Raider and mortars finish the Warriors inside as well as immobalizing a Ravager. Executioner explodes a Ravager.
DE1-Charge forward shooting and disembarking Grotesques. 1 Chimera explodes and kills 14 Guardsmen in the explosion. Grotesques Explode both the Executioner and the other Chimera. The other Grotesques do not hurt the Valkyrie.
IG2-More shooting puts wounds on Grotesques, removes some guns from vehicles and the Punisher destroys another Raider. Straken and friends assault a set of Grotesques, losing combat but holding.
DE2-Shooting does various woulds but is fairly ineffective. Grotesques eat a Medusa and finish off a Vet Squad. Tie combat with Straken.
IG3-More shooting at Grotesques. One squad is left with two models at one wound left each and the other has two wounds left on each of the four. The Punisher destroys a Venom and melta destroys another. Straken wins combat the the Grotesques and they run off the board.
DE3-Shooting does not do much. Grotesques assault a squad of Guard who hold and the other squad destroys the autocannons.
IG4-The Punisher kills the last Ravager. Guard bring one Grotesque squad to a single model at one wound. The other squad has gone to ground in the ruins as to prevent IG from getting more points. Melta kills a Venom.
DE4-The second Grotesque squad loses the last model in combat.
IG5-The Punisher exploded a vehicle.
DE5-The last warrior squad on foot explodes the Valkyrie.
The games ends with a roll of a one. The score is somewhere around 1250 to 1100 in favor of Guard.
Grotesques - You all were correct. These are beasts. They destroyed vehicles and squads alike. I ordered all the parts to properly convert these this afternoon. Thank you for the advice as these are much better than the Trueborn.
Warriors - After watching the Grotesques I am very much so over the idea of Dark Lance spam as there are much better tactics. Once again, thank you for you all being correct.
Punisher - This tank is a beast. I am puzzled how this tank is not used in more tournament Guard lists. 20 shots is massive, hence how this could kill 5 vehicles in 5 turns.
Based on what I learned, here is what I plan to field as the list...
1-Is the beast pack of any use? I have seen flock squads tie up TH/SS Termies as will as beat Ork mobs, but I worry with a list of all vehicles they will be targeted and eliminated turn one. They will be in combat by turn two, and the rend rule can help them get vehicles as well as infantry.
2-Will in increase in the number of warriors help the squads at all, or would I be better off dropping them to five guys, put them in venoms for the anti-infantry abilities, and then use the points elsewhere?
Drop your warriors to 5. They are only there as ablative wounds for your blaster. Drop them so that you can spend those points on things that KILL things. =D
Also, your Haemonculi don't need venom blades. If they're in close combat, you did something wrong.
Also, one of them should probably have a shattershard. It can snipe ICs out of units. Or sergeants. Its fething awesome.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/05 04:06:27
Ravager - FF/Dark Lances or Disintegrators?
Ravager - FF/Dark Lances or Disintegrators?
Ravager - FF/Dark Lances or Disintegrators?
The Baron gives a +1 to the deployment roll. This is a great chance for an alpha strike army. His 2+ also makes him a useful distraction unit. But - for his points I could add another blaster squad, which is two more dark lances and another scoring unit.
The Haemonculi give the Grotesques a huge Ld boost. the Darkgate can smash vehicles big time and the Shattershard will eat things hardcore with its toughness test or remove model rule. They also give Grotesques a +1S from furious charge. Venom Blades are in place to use 10 loose points.
Grotesques punch tanks. Tanks blow up. People in tanks come out to play but high toughness and number of wounds mean they also are eaten.
Warriors shoot side armor and assist in unmeching the table.
Wracks can either assault or hold an objective in cover with FNP.
Ravagers are always key. I have never used disintegrators, but I am tempted to. Nine AP2 shoots is nothing to sniff at. With Grotesques and seven raiders (plus blasters) doing vehicle destruction a MEQ killing machine like S5 AP2 is very nice. Not even to target terminators, as they have stormshields for their stormshields, but rather to destroy anything that thinks about getting in range. Think what they could do to long fangs? The average number of damage rolls a dark lance gets on AV12 is only one, and even then who knows what result you will get. I think that going with the infantry slaughter is a better choice.
As usual, keep the ideas coming (especially on dl/dis and Baron) as this list is no where near perfect.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/03/07 22:01:03
Kabal of Isha's Fall 12000PTs
