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Flamers are possible the BEST elite choice in the Daemons Chaos due to the breath of Chaos.

BUT

Do people buy the bolt of Tzeetch upgrade for them? Its a whomping 30 points in addition to the already 35 pts per model! Daemons are always suffering from a lack of AT though.

If I'm running an all Tzeetch army what is the best choice for AT? Screamers?

Most people run Flamers as a suicide unit of 3, dropped boldly (or recklessly, depending on your point of view) close enough to breathe chaos on a unit as the Flamers land. If you mishap, you might lose of the Flamers, of course. But if you land on or near target, you can often wipe out an entire enemy unit. For just over 100 points, that's a pretty good cost/benefit ratio.

Adding bolt increases the unit's versatility, but as you make it more expensive you make the option of suicide landings much more costly. Hence, Flamers tend to get fielded naked.

That and, putting a Bolt of Tz on a Flamer is pretty expensive, compared to putting it on a Horror. You really pay a lot of points for, effectively, a 1 point improvement in Ballistic Skill.

Edit: Tzeentch daemons have a lot of AT options. Bolts of Tz work well with Heralds on chariots, and with Daemon Princes.

Screamers can be a handy unit. The AT capability is welcome. With a 4+ invul save, a larger unit can bog down an enemy unit you don't want other units to face (e.g., a dreadnought). And if the unit is whittled down to 1 or 2 screamers, they can hide and try darting out to contest objectives. They're cheap enough and fast enough to be useful.

Sounds like its better to keep the Bolt off.

I'm already going to be running 4 squads of Pink Horrors with Bolt.

I could spend the 90 points I'll save by upgrading my Lord of Change (I'm also running Fateweaver as the other HQ) so he can actually DO something. God that guy is so useless... too bad I already have the model.

Skip the bolt, but make sure you run those flamers! I mentioned in another thread, my flamers are the most hated/feared unit in my immediate area. I drop one unit, people say "oh crap." I drop two and I get called a donkey-cave. If you run mono-tzeentch, run 3 naked squads of 3. Unless they mishap, they will ALWAYS make their points back. Usually two or three times over. Never take the bolt though-the horrors do well enough with it and you can always take four heralds and three princes as well, giving you a total of 11 bolts (if you run those 4 troop choices) for 230pts for all of the bolts (not including model costs). Works out at 21 pts per bolt, which is still great for AV models and your flamers will DESTROY infantry. Good luck, tell us how the army plays!

Well I'm planning to run 3 soul grinders in my HS since Daemon Princes are the default choice everyone takes (trying to be different here)

So pretty much my list is:

Fateweaver
Lord of Change

4x 7 Pink Horrors with Bolt & Changeling

3x 3 Flamers of Tzeentch

3x Soul Grinders

add a unit of Screamers with leftover points from taking off the bolt.

Thoughts? I have no CC apart from the Grinders and the HQs but it looks pretty competitive and fluffy too. Too bad the Lord of Change stinks donkey ballz

I like your list DorianGray, although I prefer DPs to SGs, it's really a matter of taste.

How about instead of 4x7 horrors you run 5x5 with bolt, 1 with changling?

I love flamers, but I also really love fiends and crushers. When I do run flamers though, I always just take three without bolt. They don't need bolt and a Tzeentch themed army has so many other ways to deliver bolts. 5 man horror squads, chariots, any MCs.

My mono-Tzeentch list at 2000 is:

Fateweaver

2 HoT on chariot w/master of sorcery, bolt, 1 has we are legion (had leftover points)

3x3 flamers

6x5 horrors w/bolt, 1 w/changeling, 2 have icons

2x3 screamers

3 DPs MoT, bolt

Don't 5-man squads of Pink Horrors die really easily?

I could see the benefit of going for more squads then fewer larger squads for the extra bolts.

Lord of Change still sucks... >_> Is giving him the breath of Chaos (so he can effectively be a Flamer of T.) and that gift that gets him shoot twice a viable build?

With what your list seems to be, the 5 man units with bolt seem to be better. A unit of 7 will die almost as fast as the 5 man and in CC they will fold. You need them to shoot, and that bolt is going to bring some stuff down. The LoC does suck, consider switching him for 2 heralds of tzeentch on chariots with Bolt, We are Legion and Master of Sorcery. 2 shots at 2 different targets from each, and they together will give you more wounds, better cover saves (if needed) and they will cost about the same. Only difference is strength and ignoring armor saves. Queue Soul Grinder. Or daemon prince. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Soul Grinder model: I own 3. Princes are just infinitely better.

To answer your question about Screamers, they work very well IMO. I even splash them into an otherwise mono Nurgle list. They crack most armour I've come across so far, and they can even make a last turn dash to contest an objective, being jetbikes and all.

LOC needs Master of Sorcery, We are Legion, Breath, Bolt and even Boon . I would agree that heralds are a much better use of points-on Chariots or discs. I would suggest-perhaps painfully on the wallet- that a KoS would work better still...

As for the Grinder v Prince debate..I prefer Grinders. They are better if you face armour, better at dealing with hordes, cost less points, and don't die to small arms. Just my opinion mind, it's not the law or anything..

Anyone try out the blue scribes as one of their heralds?

Give bolt to the horrors or a killy daemon prince if anything. You want the flamers to focus fire(pardon the pun)

What's the best way to fit out a Herald of Tzeentch?

Blue Scribes anyone?

A commonly fielded version of Tzeentch heralds comes with a chariot, We Are Legion, Master of Sorcery and Bolt of Tzeentch. Coming in at a little over 100 points, this build gives you a mobile unit that is fairly durable (a lot of wounds, with a 4++ save) capable of anti-tank firepower and additional firepower (with daemonic gaze) that can take out lighter vehicles or MEQs.

Blue scribes is tricky to use, very versatile, and sometimes devastatingly effective, particularly in combination with other units. When things come together with this daemon (e.g., pavaning a unit into bunches for a nearby Flamer unit's Breath of Chaos), the results can be impressive.

I used the following army a lot a year or two back. It's my take on a pure tzeentch army. I don't like grinder's thematically, since they swear themselves to the daemon of the forge . Otherwise I really like them in lists.

HQ
Herald of Tzeentch w/ chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch w/ chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch w/ chariot, we are legion, master of sorcery, bolt of tzeentch
The Blue Scribes

Elite
3 Flamers
3 Flamers
3 Flamers

Troops
5 Horror's, bolt of tzeentch
5 Horror's, bolt of tzeentch
5 Horror's, bolt of tzeentch
6 Horror's, bolt of tzeentch, changeling

Fast Attack
4 Screamers
4 Screamers
4 Screamers

Heavy Support
Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch
Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch
Daemon Prince w/ mark of tzeentch, daemonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch

The blue scribes are a lot of fun to play with, pavane in conjunction with flamers is just brutal, and throwing out the spawn spell every now and then is a lot of fun.

I'll agree with everyone else, never put bolt on a daemon prince. The above list has never lost to a mechanized army, although it has lost to hybrid guard . It will struggle a bit against horde armies, but does extremley well vs. mech lists and marines.