Can cannon balls bounce over hills?

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**GMR**

Had a situation in a game recently were my Bloodcrushers were, by my estimation, hidden behind a hill. I assumed it would protect them from the opposing Empire cannons, but then my opponent proceeded to place his marker in front of the hill got an 8 on the artillery dice putting it directly in front of my Crushers and followed up by smashing 2 of them into paste.

Is that normal? I've checked the main rules and all it seems to say is cliffs stop it dead and so do obstacles like walls, but nothing specifically about hills. I know it's a fantasy game, but seriously a 3ft high wall can stop a cannon ball but a 10ft hill won't?

It's a bit of a bummer if it's true because then the only 2 pieces of cover that can protect me against the cannons are a couple of buildings and frankly trying to slink my Bloodthirster around so he doesn't get cannon-smeared off the table is already out of character enough.

So what are your thoughts on this, what can stop a cannon ball?

**Sol**

If he had LOS to your bloodcrushers, then yes he can shot them, and bounce on, or over the hill. If he did not have LOS he could not shot at them at all. A hill is just rolling ground it is not an obstacle.

**GMR**

The only problem with that is that it doesn't say in the rule book you need LOS on any particular unit, just on whatever random 'target' you've chosen to fire the gun at.

**nosferatu1001**

And if you dont fire at that target, given you can pre measure, then it is cheating to target another unit.

If he could not see your BC he couldnt shoot them with a cannon.

**Sol**

GMR wrote:The only problem with that is that it doesn't say in the rule book you need LOS on any particular unit, just on whatever random 'target' you've chosen to fire the gun at.

Yes it does, it says you have to see what you are targeting, so even to aim 6 inches short you he would have to be able to draw LOS to that spot.

**Lordhat**

nosferatu1001 wrote:And if you dont fire at that target, given you can pre measure, then it is cheating to target another unit.

If he could not see your BC he couldnt shoot them with a cannon.

I disagree.

BRB pg. 112 wrote: Choose Target
Nominate a point within the warmachine's line of sight and that is not outside the cannon's maximum range. your target does not have to be an enemy model; it can be a point on the ground if you wish.

So the target point is the only requirement for LOS, and only obstacles specifically stop the bounce from going any further. As far as I can tell RAW does not prohibit a cannon from being fired 'through' a hill.

As for how I would play it: I would agreeably let my opponent shoot at a unit behind a hill if their target was at or very near the crown of the hill, but I would at least have a brief conversation if they tried to bounce through it.

**Killjoy00**

This is perfectly fine RaW. As Lordhat correctly quotes, you fire at a specific point. The main restrictions are that you have to see that point and you can't possibly hit your own units. Otherwise, go for it.

**DukeRustfield**

"If the cannonball bounces into impassable terrain that would, in reality, stand in the way of the shot, such as a sheer cliff, it stops immediately."

It's not "impassible" but it would "in reality, stand in the way."

"if the cannonball bounces into an obstacle, the obstacle is destroyed but the cannonball" stops.

So a hedge will stop a cannonball but a hill won't?

Also, you do need line of sight to attack a unit. You can say you're attacking the point in front of the hill, but why on earth would your men fire their cannon at a random point in front of a hill unless they knew something was behind it which thier magic cannonball might hit? We hate hills! You could say someone else said shoot behind the hill, but that doesn't work for any other unit.

You obviously have to make a check to the target units because you are required not to have even a "chance" of hitting enemies in close combat or your own units. So that means you have to draw a line and know what's there, whether you can see it or not. It could get really ugly where in the same situation enemies were in close combat behind that hill and you shoot at them. "I'm just shooting at the point." /innocent whistle

**Lordhat**

DukeRustfield wrote:"If the cannonball bounces into impassable terrain that would, in reality, stand in the way of the shot, such as a sheer cliff, it stops immediately."

It's not "impassible" but it would "in reality, stand in the way."

"if the cannonball bounces into an obstacle, the obstacle is destroyed but the cannonball" stops.

So a hedge will stop a cannonball but a hill won't?

I agree with you here; a cannonball won't bounce 'through' a hill. Off the crown, yes. Maybe even over the crown from a suitably close point on the front, but not through, no.

Also, you do need line of sight to attack a unit.

Unless the rules say otherwise. Check Stone throwers and Hexes for other instances when LOS is not needed (Hexes might not be considered attacking).

You can say you're attacking the point in front of the hill, but why on earth would your men fire their cannon at a random point in front of a hill unless they knew something was behind it which thier magic cannonball might hit?

This is a fluff argument and invalid in YMDC, but for completeness' sake, I'll respond. They'd shoot there because you (the general) said to. No more, no less.

You obviously have to make a check to the target units because you are required not to have even a "chance" of hitting enemies in close combat or your own units. So that means you have to draw a line and know what's there, whether you can see it or not. It could get really ugly where in the same situation enemies were in close combat behind that hill and you shoot at them. "I'm just shooting at the point." /innocent whistle

Note that 'You' (the player) must make sure that there is no chance that the cannon cannot hit friendly units or enemies locked in combat, not the unit. If checking this required the unit to have LOS to the entirety of it's possible path, the game would break every time the cannon attempted to shoot at a valid target it had LOS to but not beyond (such as when it's not on a hill). Following this logic would mean cannons not on an elevated vantage point could quite possibly spend entire games being unable to shoot.

EDIT: Also note that you only need LOS to the initial spot (target). The cannonball will never bounce from this spot. The bounce will always occur 2-10" further afield, or it will misfire. Not even obstacles or impassable terrain stops the overshot. Only on the bounce do these things matter. Raw, it is quite possible to pick a legal target on the front of a hill to overshoot far enough to land on a spot on the rear of the hill and bounce (still legally) from there.