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After a bit of a break from 40K in general to focus on my High Elf army list (the actual models should be getting some love soon), I've swung back into thinking about 40K...and my Salamanders are still causing me headaches trying to sort them out.

I've also had to stop building lists at the 2K mark, as my new group mainly plays 1500pts, whereas the old was more varied. So before I was building an "ideal" 2000 point list and then trying to slim it down to whatever points-limit there was on any particular day. Nowadays I need to work on a list that is fairly solid at 1500pts, but which I can add to in order to create a nice and flavourful 2000pt army.

Still heading down the "theme and aesthetics" line of thought - now that I have less time for wargaming in general (university work is intensifying dramatically) I am finding that I want models that fit the background, look good and have plenty of modelling opportunities; rather than being necessarily a solid choice.

++

So what have I leaned thus far in my 40K experiences? Mainly, that Tactical Marines are good. They are extremely flexible and capable in many roles...but they should stay the hell out of combat, it is almost a death-sentence to them.

With this in mind I am thinking of making use of Combat Tactics - it can be very lethal to an opposing squad (someone ran the maths, you can eliminate a Chaos Space Marine squad that's fully tooled up for the loss of 4-ish Marines, if you manage to break away every turn - and they were just armed with Bolters too). Since the actual close-combat fighting is negligible, I do not see any point in upgrading the Sergeants too heavily. Basically, the Tactical Marine is a shooting unit that can also stomp on remnant mobs of Ork boyz, Guardsmen, Tau, Eldar Guardians, Termagaunts and units of that ilk, and should be equipped as such.

Essentially I am looking for a very "generalist" force, except with a few "specialised" elements to help give some fight against tough units. I suppose one could almost view it as the "Water Way" of playing (it bides its time, striking decisively where the enemy is weakened, falling back from strong opposition to strike elsewhere) but that doesn't quite cover it. Mobile short-ranged gunline also almost covers it.

++

Well, here's what I've got now as my "starting force":

HQ

Captain: Combi-Melta, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armour, Iron Halo.
155

Command Squad - Apothecary: Bolt Pistol, Close-Combat Weapon & Narthecium. 4 Veterans: 4 Bolt Pistols & Close-Combat Weapons, Company Standard. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter.
170
Even bare-bones, this squad seems very expensive. Still, modelling opportunities abound - I have ideas for the Apothecary, Standard Bearer and one of the random dudes; I just have to sort out the equipment for them!

Troops

Tactical Squad 1 - Sergeant: Combi-Flamer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Rhino: Storm Bolter.
215
Tactical Squads are quite expensive - and although I favour the Plasma Gun in a squad like this, the cost is fairly extortionate. I'm even debating the Combi-Flamer now - being able to lay down 2 Flame templates is great in-game, but I am wondering if the points I'm spending are actually worth it?

Tactical Squad 2 - Sergeant: Combi-Flamer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Rhino: Storm Bolter.
215
Same as above. I have found that one lone Tactical Squad tends to lack the necessary firepower to deal with enemy units, but two together is ideal.

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad - Sergeant: Bolter & Signum. 9 Marines: 5 Bolters & 4 Missile Launchers. Rhino: Storm Bolter.
265
The force needs some long-ranged firepower. Devastators are fluffy units for the Salamanders too. Though I am starting to envy the Blood Angels/Space Wolves with their cheaper units. Holy hell this unit is expensive!

1020 points (480 to go)

So I've got my HQ and Troops requirements, as well as some long-ranged firepower.

In terms of models that I like, I really love standard Terminators - I think they could fit into the army really well, as they can deploy suddenly (Deepstrike) and can move-and-fire reasonably well, whilst adding some hard-hitting close-combat elements. They're also nice and fluffy...but I am wondering if I should not leave them for the 2000 point mark (where I could roll out a nice 10-man unit, for example, instead of trying to shoe-horn 5 into 1500 points).

I like the Forgeworld Dreadnoughts, so it would be nice to have one or two in the army. Working out how to equip them is a bit of a pain. I know that the 2x Twin-Linked Autocannon variety are a potent force on the table-top, but I am not so keen on the look of a Dreadnought with no Close-Combat weapon. They just look a bit...off somehow. However I also like the Predator model, so trying to work out a balance between Dreadnoughts and Predators is problematic.

2 Dreadnoughts and the Terminators would take my list to 1500 points quite easily (and leave a little room to equip my Command Squad as well). However, I think that force is lacking a little...something. Notably, any sort of fast response unit. I may be wrong of course, but I am just not certain that they're going to be the way to go.

The force needs some Fast Attack, I feel - Bikes could be an option (and would be a nice-and-codex 5-man unit), but the Land Speeder models are quite nice as well and offer up some painting and modelling options. So I am wondering if there is some way I could work them into the force. I don't know what type of Speeder I would prefer - the Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer combination is good, but I like the idea of a Multi-Melta Typhoon for flexibility and providing mobile firepower at range (with the Melta to swoop in for the kill); yet there is an image of 2-3 Speeders equipped with Assault Cannons hurtling across the battlefield in a storm of bullets that I can't shake from my mind either.

I also love Assault Marine models - but since I am keeping my Fast Attack reduced for fluff reasons, it has to come down to a choice between Speeders/Bikes/Assault Marines - I think the first two (and most likely Land Speeders) are going to win out, particularly in a more shooting-based army such as this.

A few things that I have been debating:

I could reduce the Devastators to a 5-man unit in a Razorback with 3 guns (and maybe Razorback upgrades, but possibly not to keep this unit cheaper). This should free up some points that I can put into other areas of the force. A unit in a Heavy Bolter-equipped Razorback with 3 Missile Launchers would cost me 175 points, compared to the current 265 points (giving me 570 points to play with instead of 480).

If I were to do that, I would almost be inclined to take 2 of them, but I think that is way too many points invested to be properly viable, as I would be losing out on the Dreadnought(s)/Predator(s)/Land Speeder(s) by doing so.

I am contemplating a third Tactical Squad as well, one that I could potentially Combat Squad to have a scoring unit held back to secure objectives if needed, and to generally boost the body-count in the army. But since this would be another 200+ points I am a little concerned that I won't have anything left to support the force.

2x 5-man Devastators supporting a 10-man Tactical Squad could give me a great "central" force to support some "flanking" 2x 10-man Tactical Squads and Command Squad. But that is an awful lot of points spent, leaving me absolutely no room for any supporting units. So the army would just be Tactical Marines, Devastators, Command Squad in AV11 transports - that sounds a little weak on several fronts.

I guess the main things I need to sort out are:

1) Field a 10-man or 5-man Devastator Squad?

2) How should I equip the Command Squad, with a view to supporting those Tactical Squads?

3) If I throw in a standard Terminator unit, what should I be looking at to support the

force? Or should I leave them for later, relying on the Command Squad to provide my Close-

Combat support?

4) Would Dreadnoughts or Predators be better support for this army?

++

I apologise for my rambling - is there anyone who can help me make sense of where I should go next with the force?

Some armer would be good
how about a redemmer for 240 altho they tend to get focus fired
land speeders are good and i find that MM and tyfoon and deep strike is a good cobinatin for tank hunting

Hi,

Im not so experienced player, but im playing SM too and maybe my point of view will be in some ways good for you too.

HQ - with salamander army Vulkan is very good HQ, if i willplay this army ill take him instead of captain, all melta and flamer weapons are twink-linked, if you take assault termies all THs are master crafted weapons. I know that in 1500 pts army list named HQ eat many points, but Vulkan is one of them wich is worth his points.

TROOPS - tac squads are almost backbone of every SM roster, in 10men squad is maybe good to take with them free heavy weapons, i play my squads in this way that one tac squad take MM and meltagun, this squad is in rhino and their role is to take objective in middle part of battlefield, i have second tac squad and they have razorback as DT and they always go for objectives in my deploy zone or try to hold objective away from main battleline. razor has lasplas turret and its there for fire support from distance and for cover for tacticals. sometimes i have scouts with snipers and camo cloaks, depends on enemy army , good for MCs and similars, sometimes i use them with thunderfire cannon in ruins - they have then 2+ cover, depends on enemy army , good for MCs and similars.

ELITE - termies are good, TH/SS mostly preferable in these days in many SM armies, with Vulkan all thunder hammers in your army become master-crafted weapons. IF you want take termies, best combo is termies and LR, this unit eat 1/3 pts of your army so you need to build list around this unit and prepare that all enemy fire in first 1-2 turns will be focused on them so it is good to have some other dangerous unit for split incoming bullets. Dreadnoughts - someone likes them, someone doesnt, someone likes tanks as predators or vindis more. If we will still coiunt that Vulkan is HQ ironclad with flamers and meltas of course standart dreads with MM are very dangerous especially when they are in DPs. I Play TL AC dreads as fire support for my army, they are good to open 10-12 armor vehicles, they are walkers so they can move 6 and still fire from all weapons, and im trying ironclad too.

HEAVY - Predator is one the best tanks in C:SM i think, is cheap with good armor, dakka predators are good , with lascannon sponsons you have good antitank weapon. Vindicators are truly threat for many armies, ordnance with AP2 is realy danger, if you have 2 or more in army they become bulletmagnet n.1 for your enemy.

Devastators demand good tactic in start, 10 men are more valuable, but cost too much with weapons upgrades.

FAST - speeders and attack bikes and bikes are good units, if you want play balanced army take speeders, if bike army with e.a. captain on bike, take bike squads with attack bikes, they are realy good, but play bike army isnt easy task if you know how to play them, you will be big problem for many opponents.

Maybe this will help you a little.

Just I don't think salamanders can be fluffy without Vulkan

Just one cool idea... How about drop-pod Vulkan list? You take Vulkan as HQ, HF/MM dreadnoughts (or ironclads) i pods (so now TL melta ), tac squads that drop down packing combi-flamers, flamers and multi-meltas, steins with combi-flamers/combi-meltas... It would be pretty cool army...

im at school right now but heres a rough list(no codex)
HQ
Vulkan He' Stan -190
Librarian TA/SS -140
Troops
2x Tactical Sqauds (10) 340
2x Flamer 2x MM
Elites
2x Ironclad W/MM and HF 290
3x Drop Pod 2x w/ homing beacon(dreadnaught pods) 135
10x Term Assault TH/SS 400
1495. the idea is to drop pod both of the ironclads on turn one, and use gate of affinity to teleport to the drop pod and since it has a homing beacon, NO SCATTER WOOOOOOOT within 6 inches, but still, so you have a unit of assault termies with a librarian on the other side of the board in theory on turn 1. and you a few turns later you can foot slog your tac squad, or hold them on objectives and drop pod another tac squad down, the only reason i would do this is to get both of those ironclads on turn 1 to pop some vehicles.

It could be cool... Give it a try... Just one thing.. He'Stan is 190...

But I'd still drop libby, termies and homing beacon and go like this:

HQ: 190
Vulkan He'Stan: 190

ELITES: 665
Ironclad (MM/HF, 2x Hunter missiles): 165
+ dedicated drop pod (locator beacon): 45
Ironclad (MM/HF, 2x Hunter missiles): 165
+ dedicated drop pod (locator beacon): 45
7xSteinguard (4xcombi-melta, 3x combi-flamer): 210
+ dedicated drop pod: 35

TROOPS: 645
Tac squad (combi-flamer, flamer, MM): 180
+ dedicated drop pod: 35
Tac squad (combi-flamer, flamer, MM): 180
+ dedicated drop pod: 35
Tac squad (combi-flamer, flamer, MM): 180
+ dedicated drop pod: 35

TOTAL: 1500

I think it would be pretty cool... First turn you drop down 2 ironclads and steins, poping down vehicles... Then your marines start falling down without scatter and flaming everything outside of transporters, combat squading and melting vehicles from next turn

i just realized i made a list without reading your post, i can give you some insight.
#1 bikes are good, but speeders are better
#2 Devastators seem cool because of death from afar, but you can use your points on better things, and when you play a space wolf player and hear hes going to split fire, it makes you sad and regret bringing them for more points and less versatility
#3 Command Squads are expensive and ive never really found a decent use for them if your going to run a named HQ themed army, if your going to play vanilla marines they could be cool but, thats no fun.
#4 regular termies are good because they deep strike, but losing the whole unit or a few because of dangerous terrain checks or a mishap can make the whole game sad, the list that ive posted should help with some insight or some ideas of your own.
#5 armored vehicles are cool, but usually are the big targets so unless you bring multiples there is no point in bringing one vindicator because it will fall victim to either (dark lances, rail guns, lascannons, missile launchers) and much other nasty stuff, the only thing that i would bring one of in the codex is probably a land raider because its hard to take down and is used to soak up alot of fire....


so i hope i helped a little bit .... cheers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chinchilla wrote:It could be cool... Give it a try... Just one thing.. He'Stan is 190...

But I'd still drop libby, termies and homing beacon and go like this:

HQ: 190
Vulkan He'Stan: 190

ELITES: 665
Ironclad (MM/HF, 2x Hunter missiles): 165
+ dedicated drop pod (locator beacon): 45
Ironclad (MM/HF, 2x Hunter missiles): 165
+ dedicated drop pod (locator beacon): 45
7xSteinguard (4xcombi-melta, 3x combi-flamer): 210
+ dedicated drop pod: 35

TROOPS: 645
Tac squad (combi-flamer, flamer, MM): 180
+ dedicated drop pod: 35
Tac squad (combi-flamer, flamer, MM): 180
+ dedicated drop pod: 35
Tac squad (combi-flamer, flamer, MM): 180
+ dedicated drop pod: 35

TOTAL: 1500

I think it would be pretty cool... First turn you drop down 2 ironclads and steins, poping down vehicles... Then your marines start falling down without scatter and flaming everything outside of transporters, combat squading and melting vehicles from next turn

yeh thats a list ive used a few times as well. but in close combat he will get eaten alive and the dreadnaughts will get stuck in tar pits, (groups of 30 boyz to hold it up the whole game)
thats why i put the terminators. because he likes them and they are awesome 2+ save 3+ invuln AWESOME>>>

Bavers wrote:Some armer would be good
how about a redemmer for 240 altho they tend to get focus fired
land speeders are good and i find that MM and tyfoon and deep strike is a good cobinatin for tank hunting

A Redeemer could be a good investment. I had considered taking one of the Land Raider variants and bunging a Tactical Squad in it - if it is my only Heavy armour, then I may as well make it Scoring as well as difficult to engage (and have a useful unit bundling out of it if it is destroyed).

Although one Land Raider alone is perhaps asking for trouble, with the amount of Melta weaponry people take these days. I agree that more armour is a good idea - but I am thinking more Dreadnoughts/Predators/Vindicators than a lone Land Raider (if I could afford 2 Land Raiders in the list then we would be having a different discussion )

++

Udunai wrote:Hi,

Im not so experienced player, but im playing SM too and maybe my point of view will be in some ways good for you too.

HQ - with salamander army Vulkan is very good HQ, if i willplay this army ill take him instead of captain, all melta and flamer weapons are twink-linked, if you take assault termies all THs are master crafted weapons. I know that in 1500 pts army list named HQ eat many points, but Vulkan is one of them wich is worth his points.

I'm not keen on him - I really like Combat Tactics which he replaces - it has saved my bacon numerous times.

TROOPS - tac squads are almost backbone of every SM roster, in 10men squad is maybe good to take with them free heavy weapons, i play my squads in this way that one tac squad take MM and meltagun, this squad is in rhino and their role is to take objective in middle part of battlefield, i have second tac squad and they have razorback as DT and they always go for objectives in my deploy zone or try to hold objective away from main battleline. razor has lasplas turret and its there for fire support from distance and for cover for tacticals. sometimes i have scouts with snipers and camo cloaks, depends on enemy army , good for MCs and similars, sometimes i use them with thunderfire cannon in ruins - they have then 2+ cover, depends on enemy army , good for MCs and similars.

I agree that Tacticals are a great backbone to have. I prefer to keep them as generalist units, though more focused on anti-infantry work. We have to pay for all those Bolter-toting Marines to be able to get *any* Weapons upgrades, so you may as well put them to effect by shooting at enemy infantry. I'm currently going for Flamer-based units, however in the past I had great success with a Combi-Flamer/Plasma Gun/Multi-Melta/Rhino set-up.

5-man units in an upgraded Razorback could work, however I think that a Marine army needs at least 2x10-man units to have some resilient Scoring units. Were I to add more Tacticals then I would go for the Razor-squad, but I think at 1500pts exceeding 2, 3 at most, Tactical Squads means that you don't have enough points left for the support elements.

Devastators demand good tactic in start, 10 men are more valuable, but cost too much with weapons upgrades.

That's what I am finding, but as a fluffy unit I want to make them work. 5 Men might be justabout viable, or I am considering booting them out until I can hit 2000 points (I think it may come down to being an *either/or* choice for the Devastators/Terminators.

++

Chinchilla wrote:Just I don't think salamanders can be fluffy without Vulkan

They were fluffy enough in 3rd/4th edition without him .

Just one cool idea... How about drop-pod Vulkan list? You take Vulkan as HQ, HF/MM dreadnoughts (or ironclads) i pods (so now TL melta ), tac squads that drop down packing combi-flamers, flamers and multi-meltas, steins with combi-flamers/combi-meltas... It would be pretty cool army...

somewhere in the 2000 point vacinity:

Vulkan

Termi Libby - Null zone, Gate

thundernators x 5 - crusader/redeemer

thundernators x 5 - crusader/redeemer

3xMM/HFDreads with Drop Pods

3xMM/HF Speeders

as many Tac Squads with Fl/MM and combi-flamer in Rhinos as you can fit.

I pulled this out of my butt and it looks like a blast. GO GO GO

EDIT: I wrote this on my way out immediately before I left work. Then I thought about it on the bus and realized this list is like 3000 pts HA! I supposed it would still create a strong core after gettin shaved back some.

your not appearing stubborn in any way...so it sounds like you dont want a cheap way to win the game soooooooooooo from reading your responses i could try this...

Vulkan - 190
2x (5) Tactical Squads w/ Flamer sarge combi-melta -180
1x (5) Terminator Squad W/ Cyclone Missile -230
2x Dreadnaughts w/ MM and HF -230
2x Pred with TL Lascannon and Las Sponsons -330
1x Land Raider Redeemer -240
2x Razorback w/ extra armor -110

yeh i know its over, but you can decide to make cuts and not.
So, idk what you wanna do, but this looks somewhat with stuff you like and dont like.

I run a Salamander list and this is the one I use at 1500

Vulkan

Terminator Assault squad x5 w/TH/SS
Dedicated LRR w/EA, MM

Tac Squad x5 sgt w/combi melta
Dedicated Razorback w/TLAC

Tac Squad x5 sgt w/combi melta
Dedicated Razorback w/TLAC

Scout Bikers x3 SGT w/combi melta, melta bombs

Vindicator w/siege shield

LRC w/EA, MM

I have one of the tac squads ride in the LRC to make it scoring. The typical deployment for me is to have the LRR and the LRC flank the vindicator, and have the razorbacks use the vindicator for cover.

I did a little musing about what I really want to field, and have made a small amount of progress:

HQ

Captain: Combi-Melta, Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armour, Iron Halo.
155
No Change.

Command Squad - Apothecary: Bolt Pistol, Close-Combat Weapon & Narthecium. 4 Veterans: 4 Bolt Pistols & Close-Combat Weapons, Company Standard. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter.
170
Still naked. I have a few ideas of what I want to do, though my plan will ultimately rest on what holes need plugging when I've rounded out the rest of the army.

Troops

Tactical Squad 1 - Sergeant: Combi-Flamer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Rhino: Storm Bolter.
215
Keeping it cheap.

Tactical Squad 2 - Sergeant: Combi-Flamer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters, 1 Flamer & 1 Multi-Melta. Rhino: Storm Bolter.
215
As above.

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad - Sergeant: Bolter, Power Fist & Signum. 9 Marines: 5 Bolters, 2 Multi-Meltas & 2 Plasma Cannon. Rhino: Storm Bolter.
310
I wanted something fire-based, and my army had a weakness to Monstrous Creatures/tough units, hence needing some serious AP1/2 firepower in the mix. The Fist is for insurance/modelling purposes, given the cost & how high on the opponent's target priority list this unit is likely to be.

The idea with this squad is that it can be flexible - deploying as a 10-man unit to soak up casualties, hit enemies at long-range with the Plasma Cannon and then engage vehicles with the Multi-Meltas if they dare to approach. Works as an excellent anti-Drop-Pod unit, whether it is Sternguard or Dreadnoughts that are coming down.

Or the unit can split into 2, with the Plasma Cannons hunkering down in my Deployment Zone whilst the Multi-Meltas and Power Fist roll up the board in the Rhino. Not ideal, perhaps, but the ability to adapt on-the-fly is always welcome.

1065 points (435 to go).

Where next is still a small issue.

A default option that I am entertaining is 5x Terminators (Heavy Flamer + Chain Fist) and 2x Predators (Autocannon + Heavy Bolters) - this should give me some nice close-combat punch and some long-ranged firepower, as well as 55 points to invest in the Command Squad (Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, 2 Flamers in all likelihood).

However, I am still musing on whether I want to take an Assault Squad or not - the Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield guy can be their Sergeant, and 10-man unit with 2 Flamers rocking around either on Jump Packs or a Rhino could be useful. A sharp 255 points for the squad though, leaving me a mere 180 to take some sort of armour and equip the Command Squad.

Another small niggling issue is that I am still concerned about the number of Troops I am fielding. In larger games, I am going to opt for an additional 2x Tactical Squads - albeit at 5-strong and mounted in Razorbacks. This would set me back 260 points (for naked units) if I were to add them now, leaving me with only 175 to bulk the army up. With Combi-Weapons and Twin-Linked Lascannons I could plug some gaps in my force, but I would be lacking in a decent close-combat unit which is a concern.

Long-ranged firepower is still a weakness in the army - particularly of the anti-tank variety. I think I am very well set with my Melta-proliferation (albeit static melta - maybe getting some Meltaguns in the Command Squad might be a smart idea), so something with a bit more reach could be handy. That's why I'm looking at the Predators at the moment, though I am a tad concerned that a pair of Autocannons will simply not cut it. Some Predators equipped with TL-Lascannon and Heavy Bolters look appealing, though I would run into the same problems as if I were taking the Razorback squads as mentioned above.

A pair of Dreadnoughts could give me both some combat ability and some long-ranged firepower, and I'd probably have room for another unit as well depending on how I outfit them. The only thing that I am wary about is that I would have a low body-count and I want to keep 2 Elite Slots free for Terminators in higher-points games (I would like, most likely at 2500-3000 points, to have a 10-man Tactical Terminator unit and a 5-man Assault Terminator unit in a Land Raider).

There is much debate about the fluffiness of vehicles for the Salamanders. At the moment my general theme is that of Armageddon - so protecting refugee columns and getting to/fighting inside Rokk fortresses, thus Rhinos but limited Battle Tanks as the Salamanders did not want to engage in long-ranged tank duels in the deserts. As such I am thinking that Dreadnoughts are a better support option for the force, and I am also vaguely entertaining the idea of dropping the transports in the army (especially as everyone can Run in this edition). I know that Mechanisation is very good - and certainly it helps with the "short-ranged firefight" nature of the Salamanders, but I could gain an additional 145 points from my extant list if I were to do away with them. I think they give me more benefits than drawbacks so I cannot say I am keen on the idea, but it is something I could bear in mind.

What do you think I should do? Will the Predators + Terminators be sufficient, or should I look to other options to plug the holes in the force?