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So starting my first army in 40K, and was hoping for some input before i drop all that dough. i got me a battleforce, so while i paint that (can't wait to put some pics up of that too) i am showing some restraint and want to make sure i get this build right the first time.
so here's what i got

HQ
Swarmlord
280

Elite
Deathleaper
140
Zoanthropes x2 /w Mycetic Spore
160

Troops
Termagaunts x15 /w adrenal glands & toxic sacs & Mycetic Spore
145
Hormagaunts x15 /w adrenal glands & toxic sacs
150
Genestealers x15 /w scything talons
240

Fast
Shrike x3
150
Gargoyles x18 /w adrenal glands & toxic sacs
144

Heavy
Mawlocs x2 340

=1749 (yay!)

This is obviously meant to be a deep strike heavy team, with lots of scattered movement, and mind bending play.
what i am worried about is in my noobishnes i am missing key point of the game. any help would be awesome, even just advice on how best to play it
(btw i don't take credit for the build)

While I'm not super adept at Tyranids there are those that are.

I would check out 3++'s Back to Basics series
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/03/armies-in-5th-basics-part-1-army.html
Tyranid Codex review and guide
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2010/03/armies-in-5th-tyranids-part-1-anti-tank.html
And this thread which is probably the most relavant to the type of army you are attempting to construct
http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/02/email-in-1750-tyranid-reserve-list.html

Hope it helps,

razor

nice list dude!

Afraid I'm going to poop on the list a little ...

Swarmlord needs some tyrant guard to protect him as he moves actoss the board, especially as the majority will be deepstriking and so he may well be isolated.

Deathleaper is not the best elite choice - the pheromone trail rarely has any impact and you can buy a lot of goodies elsewhere with 140 points. The +1 reserves together with the +1 from the swarmlord sounds great, but you only get it once he's on the table ...

If you're looking at termagaunts in a spore then I would upgrade their weapons to devourers. Expensive, but the extra range and damage potential can earn it's points back. I'd drop the adrenals to help pay for it - they don't need both upgrades.

Genestealers I prefer rending to scything - good for transports and power armour.

Hormogaunts with toxin and adrenal are pricey for what they do. Just take one and with points saved push them up to 20. I assume you are going to either outflank using swarmlord ability or keep them with the swarmord and use furious charge from him. In which case the adrenals can be dropped.

I'd like a 4th troop choice really, but that's just me!

3 shrikes is too easy to kill. You need 4-5 minimum to ensure they actually reach CC with enough left to make an impact. Remember that S8+ weapons insta-kill them and they only have a 5+ armour roll.

Gargoyles, again drop the adrenals.

Mawlocs I have never seen run in pairs, so slightly out of my comfort zone. Thoughts are that this is good vs foot IG or ork horde but fairly weak against a mech list. Prefer 2 trygons myslef, but accept that they are a bit more expensive.

@ruminator
Wow, i appreciate the time you put into responding to my thread, but thankfully in my case, being a n00b doesn't mean being uninformed.

You may be right about the deathleaper being a bit costly for his effect, my plan for him was to set up the Mawlocs, and the double + to my reserve roll. but i may switch him out for some hie guards for swarmlord.

but all that talk of dropping adrenal glands, this isn't right. The boost i get from having adrenal glands on all my units paired with toxin sacs is to good to pass up."I'd drop the adrenals to help pay for it - they don't need both upgrades." well in my opinion they do. the +1 to strength brings all the guys with the glands up to S4, at par with all MEQ allowing my failed poison rolls to be re-rolled. so yes, they do need both. and for only 1 point per model on both termagaunts and gargoyles, i wont be dropping them.

The thing you said about Genestealers... "I prefer rending to scything" well i prefer having both. seeing as how having one doesn't cancel the other. so they stay

As for your recommendation to Trygons, I've never seen the benefit myself. Sure you gain WS5 over 3, but you only gain S5 AP5 assault 6 and lose S6 AP2 large blast.. how is that not better against armour? my guess to why you don't see them in pairs is because people are too scared to leave their comfort zone.

and again in my n00bishness maybe i don't see, but what ability does swarmlord have that lets Hormogaunts use the outflank ability?

going with the fact that i am not dropping adrenal glands what could i get that would be better for the points for deahleaper, any suggestions anyone?

I think you should drop deathleaper also and get a squad of 3 hive guard they are the best shooters you got. Also drop the hormagaunts for another squad of 3 hive guard. Split the gene stealers in half make 2 squads for infiltrating on objective missions. Take 1 trygon prime with adrenals instead of the mawlocks and spend the rest of the points saved this way on tyrant guard x1 with lashwhip. Then withwhats left beef up your stealer squads if you drop adrenals and the spore on your termagants add the points to make your shrike group alittle bigger! Hope this helps some

Also towards your question about the primes you loss the large blast gaining an asault 12 move the hts on 4's and usualy wounds on 2's your blast can ony be used 1nce every 2rounds if he doesn't get locked in combat. So figure 1 template can hit 12 units or so but the primes ability hits 24 times were the mawlock can only hit 12. You can argue that he won't hit all of thembut I can argue that the mawlock can scater off and miss completely then be a big duck where the prime is made for hit then assult

Solid advice Neroku. thanks a lot!

now i still can't condone all of it, i still want to make some changes accordingly

so here is what i got


HQ
Swarmlord /w 2 Hive Guards
280
(120)

Elite
Zoanthropes x2 /w Mycetic Spore
160

Troops
Termagaunts x16 /w toxic sacs
96
Hormagaunts x15 /w adrenal glands & toxic sacs
150
Genestealers x15 /w scything talons
240

Fast
Shrike x4 /w barbed strangler
150
Gargoyles x18 /w adrenal glands & toxic sacs
144

Heavy
Mawloc
170
Trygon prime
240

=1750 (double yay!)

what do you think?

Your second list is by far better than the first,personally though i hate mawlocs there 170pts & you get to use it 3 times tops in a battle not very cost effective in my books,trygons all the way for me,and doubt you'll need toxin sacs with ad. glands the increased strength will have you wounding on 4's most times anyway,i'm also not a huge fan of shrikes there to brittle 10 guards men could down them with las rifles on the turn they arrive,your certainly heading in the right direction though.

thanks dj narcosis!

so i am hearing what you are all saying about the shrikes, but i want something that can keep up with the gargoyles for synapse. what do you guys suggest i replace them with?

and about the toxin/adrenal, i like the re-rolls. they both stay. except on termagaunts, they will most likely hang around the swarmlord anyways.

and everyone is trashen on the Mawloc.. but i am definitly going to make one anyways, and i wont remove him from the team until i try him out on the field.

so basically i need ideas on a replacement for the Shrikes
any suggestions?

Raveners are a good replacement for shrikes, their just as fast, but with higher WS ( i think, correct me if im wrong, havent played with my nids for a while) and more attacks

Try adding a Lashwhip to one of the tyrant guard for wound allocation shenannigans

Hormagaunts are garbage, they cost way to much, and your better with termagants, their essentially the same except -1 attack and -1 initiative, but they sure are cheaper, and in my experince get the job done just as quick as hormagaunts.

15 genestealers are hard to manover at times, I would sugest getting the broodlord as he can be a powerhouse. (Hello IC/MC let me use my psycic mojo on you! Also, if you really want a hero killer in sutch a big brood give him tocix sacks and implant attack. Implant attack+rending is just bad bad bad.)

with the swarmlord moving up, the zoanthropes in spores and the trygon prime perhaps you do not need the shrikes. For the gargoyles you can just drop a "tail" of 2/3 gargoyles netting you an extended zynapse range of 6/9 iches. For those points I would buy a hive guard.

Also while the mawlock is the second cheapst T6 wounds (28 per wound) I would sugest droping him for 3 Hive Guards (25 per wound) because they more reliable take out tanks and transports then the mawlock.

: Edit, mawlocks are not bad because they are agresive it is only that they almoast always scatter of target. If you want a big blast I can reccomend the 3 biovores for 135 droping large blast S4. Mawlocks just pop up, and get shot by everyplasma/melta in the aria if he meets up solo. And the pheramone trail will not work because you burry him round 1, lictor turn up sceond turn but the trail has to be there by the start of the turn. and you (usualy) want the mawlock popping up turn 2, that means the mawlock can soonest use the trail turn 4. (Turn 3 he shield usualy charge something) There is though something to be sead abaut having lictors hanga round objectives turn 5 and hawing the mawlock blast into whatever is trying to hold the objective. Moast likly they will take a lott of casualies and will not be abel to hold it turn 6 and 7.

Hey, this is getting good. Thanks everyone for the very helpful advice!
so still going with my own play style but taking in everyone's ideas... heres what i have come up with

Swarmlord /w 2x Tyrant Guards
280
(120)

Elite
Hive Guard x3
150
Zoanthropes x2 /w Mycetic Spore
160

Troops
Termagaunts x15 /w toxic sacs
90
Hormagaunts x15 /w adrenal glands & toxic sacs
150
Genestealers x11+Broodlord /w scything talons
238


Fast
Gargoyles x19 /w adrenal glands & toxic sacs
152

Heavy
Mawloc
170
Trygon prime
240

=1750 pts. (Solid)

any more suggestions? what do you guys think of dropping the hormagaunts and making two smaller gene+lord squads?

im liking the last build looks pretty solid

ruminator wrote:Afraid I'm going to poop on the list a little ...

Swarmlord needs some tyrant guard to protect him as he moves actoss the board, especially as the majority will be deepstriking and so he may well be isolated.

Deathleaper is not the best elite choice - the pheromone trail rarely has any impact and you can buy a lot of goodies elsewhere with 140 points. The +1 reserves together with the +1 from the swarmlord sounds great, but you only get it once he's on the table ...

If you're looking at termagaunts in a spore then I would upgrade their weapons to devourers. Expensive, but the extra range and damage potential can earn it's points back. I'd drop the adrenals to help pay for it - they don't need both upgrades.

Genestealers I prefer rending to scything - good for transports and power armour.

Dude... how many times do i need to post this? -.- Genestealers upgraded with talons STILL GET RENDING.

As for Deathleaper, nah bro keep her, the lower to leadership on Liberians is amazing. Plus her combat capability is amazing. And to top it all off, if you play Cap and Control and go second, she can DS at the last second to contest something as she wont scatter!

Agree about gaunts, make them devilgaunts and loose the glands and.

Yeah they stil get rending. Talons are OK vs tanks, but adrenal glands are better. However for 13 points more he can get toxic sacks (and talon for the broodlord) if you do this they get to reroll to wound against marines (and other stuff) witch pushes theyr rending through the rooof! That is good.

If you feel like removing 13 points (1 gargoyle and 1 termagant?) then you can give them toxic sacks instead (unles you have glued them together already)

I would look to drop adrenals on gargoyles and put it on the trygon instead. Even with adrenals gargoyles only die in CC - I prefer to shoot and keep out of CC if possible. Apart from guardsmen, what could they possibly beat in CC?

I would drop scything on stealers, drop adrenal on gargoyles, drop 2-3 gargoyles. With the points I would buy adrenal on trygon, get another hive guard and split them into 2 brood of 2.

But gargoyles are so sweet!

You use them for shooting, for me it is fly close, shoot and charge. They get re roll to wound with toxic sacks and adrenal glands. And if you meet a mech heavy (like I only meet) the gargoyles can glance it! (yay) Get a stunn, recharge the next round and all of them him.

Niiai wrote:Yeah they stil get rending. Talons are OK vs tanks, but adrenal glands are better. However for 13 points more he can get toxic sacks (and talon for the broodlord) if you do this they get to reroll to wound against marines (and other stuff) witch pushes theyr rending through the rooof! That is good.

If you feel like removing 13 points (1 gargoyle and 1 termagant?) then you can give them toxic sacks instead (unles you have glued them together already)

i liked the idea, right up until i opened my codex. toxin sacs are 3 point each on genes. with twelve in the group thats 36 points... way higher than 13. adn the total there for the genes squad includes broodlord with talons. with weapon skill of 6and 7 i can't afford not to take talons on the whole squad. 3+ to hit re-rolling my ones.. awesome

as for dropping my glands on gargs ruminator... well lets just say i've never heard of aynone trying to keep Tyranids OUT of cc, except zoans of course.

*edit cause i suck at spelling*

Built-in wrote:Hey, this is getting good. Thanks everyone for the very helpful advice!
so still going with my own play style but taking in everyone's ideas... heres what i have come up with

Swarmlord /w 2x Tyrant Guards
280
(120)

Elite
Hive Guard x3
150
Zoanthropes x2 /w Mycetic Spore
160

Troops
Termagaunts x15 /w toxic sacs
90
Hormagaunts x15 /w adrenal glands & toxic sacs
150
Genestealers x11+Broodlord /w scything talons
238


Fast
Gargoyles x19 /w adrenal glands & toxic sacs
152

Heavy
Mawloc
170
Trygon prime
240

=1750 pts. (Solid)

any more suggestions? what do you guys think of dropping the hormagaunts and making two smaller gene+lord squads?

Hmmm Swarmlord, costs a lot of points has some cool abilities but I think a normal Tyrant can be just good. Problem you've got is a majority fast moving horde and a slow moving Swarmlord whose geared for combat. Best taking a ranged Tyrant who can do something with a single Guard with a lash whip is someone tries to assault.

Not sure why the Termagants have toxin sacs because they're going to get wasted anyway.

Hormagaunts don't need adrenal glands that much as they're quick enough anyway and makes them expensive.

Genestealers should come in pairs, and scything talons aren't needed that much as you probably get about 3 1's.

Mawlocs/Trygons come in pairs as easy to target prioritise. I've never found Mawlocs to be that good, pop up stand there get assaulted to stop them disappearing or blasted with plasma.

I'd be more inclined to do something like this:

Hive Tyrant - 2 x twin-linked devourers
Tyrant Guard - lash whip

2 x Hive Guard
2 x Hive Guard
2 x Zoanthropes w/ Mycetic Spore

8 x Genestealers
8 x Genestealers
20 x Hormagaunts w/ toxin sacs
20 x Hormagaunts w/ toxin sacs

Trygon Prime
Trygon Prime

The troops section needs looking at more as the troops are pretty weak.

Niiai wrote:But gargoyles are so sweet!

You use them for shooting, for me it is fly close, shoot and charge. They get re roll to wound with toxic sacks and adrenal glands. And if you meet a mech heavy (like I only meet) the gargoyles can glance it! (yay) Get a stunn, recharge the next round and all of them him.

My gargoyles are total pants at CC. Last time out they even got wiped out in CC by guardians and I had the charge, hence I refuse to spend any more than face value on them! You just can't make them good enough in CC to make upgrades wothwhile. A good unit for screening/shooting though, I just spend longer putting them on their stands and putting them away again than I do making useful combat!

Still feel the adrenals are better on the trygon prime and you'd be better of with 2*2 hive guard ...

I have to agree about Gargoyles. I used to run mine with adrenal glands and toxin sacs plus the Tyrant give them preferred enemy and they still didn't do a fat lot, if they get stuck in combat then you have problems.

if i am getting rid of glands on Gargs i may as well get rid of sacs as well, but then why even keep them on the field at all? maybe i can get another troop choice for them? or am i losing a lot of mobility? cause without the adrenal and toxin i don't see how they can be useful at all..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry for the double post, but its better than making a new thread. I took your advice and re-tooled the Gargoyles.. right outta the team! lol.
so here is my new and improved and hopefully last re-vamp=


Swarmlord /w 2x Tyrant Guards
280
(120)

Elite
Hive Guard x3
150
Zoanthropes x2 /w Mycetic Spore
160

Troops
Termagaunts x15 /w toxic sacs
90
Hormagaunts x15 /w adrenal glands & toxic sacs
150
Genestealers x8+Brood lord /w scything talons
190
Genestealers x8+Brood lord /w scything talons
190

Heavy
Mawloc
170
Trygon prime /w adrenal gland
240

=1750 pts. (C-C-C-COMBOBREAKER)

So the speed is pretty much gone, but my genes are more manageable on the field... and there are two of them!

still i miss the numbers of the shrikes.
anymore suggestions?

TBH the only time I feel you need Gargoyles if running a flying Hive Tyrant or Shrikes.

Hormagaunts still don't need adrenal glands and those costly Termagants will die too soon enough. You want boosted Termagants go Tervigon.

i probably will go tervigon in the near future, but for now that last post will be my first army. i still have a whole bunch of coversions and an epic amount of painting to be done... damn hoard... before i decide to try my had at making a few tervigons and buying a shipload of termagaunts.

thanks everyone for all the help. i know the ist can get better, but i like this one for 2 reasons.

1) it seams pretty reliable, lost some speed but gained some damage output/ staying power

2) its super cost effective in these tough economic times. like my op i have the battleforce, and now that i know my list and it's much cheaper than my first i can order the rest

so again, you guys have helped a lot
THANKS!
and i feel like i need one more
=1750 (Bazinga!)