Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Sorry for this im having one of those moments of senility.

I want a unit of stormboys led by Zagstruk. The unit is 10 stormboyz + Zag, my query is do i total the cost for 11 stormboyz then upgrade Zags points?



So is it 120pts + 85pts
or
132pts + 85pts
???

11 stormboyz + Zaggy's cost

There is no 100% answer. As it is written he technically doesn't replace any one; only the nob does. Also you could theoretical have 20 stormboyz and Zagstruk.

ahh. hmm. Ive spent ages looking at it and i still cant decide one way or another.

belial wrote:ahh. hmm. Ive spent ages looking at it and i still cant decide one way or another.

In Tournaments bring an extra stormboy and ask for (written) conformation ether way. In a friendly game I'd say he didn't replace a boy as he doesn't say to upgrade a boy.

Imo zagstrukk replaces the nob (it does say 'Instead of a nob, one mob may be led by zagstrukk), which is an upgrade. It's fairly obvious in the rules that the nob is an upgrage so a nob would cost 12+10pts and therefore zagstrukk would cost 12+85pts and you are also not allowed to have 20 stormboyz plus zagstrukk.

That's the way i see it.

Eldar Own wrote:Imo zagstrukk replaces the nob (it does say 'Instead of a nob, one mob may be led by zagstrukk), which is an upgrade. It's fairly obvious in the rules that the nob is an upgrage so a nob would cost 12+10pts and therefore zagstrukk would cost 12+85pts and you are also not allowed to have 20 stormboyz plus zagstrukk.

That's the way i see it.

One storm boy may be upgraded to a Nob. 'Instead of a nob,One mob may be led by zagstrukk', does not include magic word upgrade.

Don't be a RAW freak, btw. If someone says he is an upgrade like nobs and snikrot, just go with it.

My $0.02.

The unit size is still restricted to the entry in the codex. There are examples of models which are added to a units maximum size, I can't recall which codex unfortunatley.
'...one mob may be led by:
- Boss Zagstruck....... For a teensie bit more than 14 boys'
This means is bought in place of another model but he does not replace a model, he is not an upgrade character - the nob is an example in orks and hexatrix for Dark Eldar.
A 'full' squad would cost almost a boy more than 320pts and would contain the same number of models as the larger number in the "Unit Composition" entry.

I would say he isnt and upgrade so you just pay 85, but having never taken him i have never deliberated hard so my opinion isn't worth that much - if you can find an old issue of white dwarf where they used zagstruk you can look at the point breakdown they give and work out how they did it. nearest to an "official" ruling you can get i reckon...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I thumbed thorgh the only copy i remember them using zagstruk in and annoyingliy it was some kind of super-three-part-apocalypse-supa-battle report and they didnt include the army lists!

*sigh*

Zagstruck is a stormboy himself, it is 20 with him. 100% sure of this. Same for Snikrot and kommandos, 15 kommandos including Snikrot.

pg 101 ork codex where it lists 5-20 kstormboys, Zag is listed with the stormboys, he is a unit upgrade. He is not an addition to the unit, he is part of it.

It lists him instead of a nob, so you do not have a nob and Zag in the same unit.

10 storm boys = 120 points. Add Zag, +85 for a total of 11 models at 205 points. His listing does not say upgrade a nob or stormboy, it says "one mob may be led by Zag...85pts".

Hope that helps.

In a similar post about snikrot Kommissar Kel chimed in with "If you wanted to see an example of a unit that adds bonus members(as opposed to upgrading or Leading members) have a look at the IG CCS regimental advisors."

I do not have that codex, but is seemed to explain what the OP wanted as well. If someone wants to chime in with those exact wordings for further clarification.....

Examples:
Painboy "One nob may be a painboy +00 points"
Nob "One boy may be upgraded to Nob +00 points"

Pretty clear that a regular model becomes an enhanced model - unit size restrictions are not altered.

Stormboyz "Instead of a nob, one mob may be led by Boss Zagstruk 00 points"
Kommandos "Instead of a nob, one mob may be led by Boss Snikrot 00 points"

Note that both of these are 00 points, not +00 points. You do not upgrade a squad member in order to add Zagstruk for Snikrot. As such, they are going to be an extra model above the unit size restrictions.


Regimental Advisors don't really help, they're completely different wording. "The squad may be joined by any of the following".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

theduncan wrote:11 stormboyz + Zaggy's cost

theduncan wrote:Don't be a RAW freak, btw. If someone says he is an upgrade like nobs and snikrot, just go with it.

Being a "RAW freak" is nothing to do with it. Zagstruk is 85 points. He is not +85 points. This goes nicely with him not being an upgrade, which is why his cost is not an upgrade cost.

Scott-S6 wrote:Examples:
Painboy "One nob may be a painboy +00 points"
Nob "One boy may be upgraded to Nob +00 points"

Pretty clear that a regular model becomes an enhanced model - unit size restrictions are not altered.

Stormboyz "Instead of a nob, one mob may be led by Boss Zagstruk 00 points"
Kommandos "Instead of a nob, one mob may be led by Boss Snikrot 00 points"

Note that both of these are 00 points, not +00 points. You do not upgrade a squad member in order to add Zagstruk for Snikrot. As such, they are going to be an extra model above the unit size restrictions.


Regimental Advisors don't really help, they're completely different wording. "The squad may be joined by any of the following".

I see your line of thinking, I still disagree however. I read it as the unit upgrades are still part of the unit . The regimental advisers are an addition to the unit. If they were supplementary you would be able to have a nob and either upgrade like the regimental advisors. I think the wording "The squad may be joined by any of the following" does illustrate the point as well of them being an addition and not part of the unit composition. The Storm boys entry has in its box "storm boys, nob, zag". then lists their stats etc. He is lumped in with them, not a separate entry. I would hate to buy a codex I will not use for this one question. The answer may be in listed in similar fashion in the codex! Next time I am at my friends house I will re-read his, mainly that part on the advisers, as you stated, this may not be the same issue or illustrate the answer properly.

We may have to agree to disagree here?

I know it is not always correct, but I have done this even before I had army builder and never had any problems with opponents or tournys. The army builder entry for these units do create the unit and size with these upgrades at maximum or 15 or 20, not 16 or 21. I guess in friendly games, show your opponent your logic, either they follow your logic or provide their own. In a tourney, their word is the final say whether we agree or not.

The OP's original question has been answered about the costs I feel. This question seems to be a new one all together. Does not seem to be an issue with me as I run it how I have stated, which satisfies the rules on both of our points, no point beating a dead horse?

I lean towards the adding to the unit as they do not upgrade a member. So you buy X boyz and then buy the boss, giving you X+1 - similar to the regimental advisors. I can't see any other reason why they wouldn't have made the bosses upgrades otherwise.

I agree that the way it's worded is far from crystal clear while Nobs or regimental advisors are clearly upgrades and additions respectively.

I am sorry if my previous post was impolite, I was simply saying you shouldn't be obnoxious about it to a rules judge if they rule that he replaces a stormboy. That will tend to have them get annoyed quickly...

Scott-S6 wrote:Examples:
Painboy "One nob may be a painboy +00 points"
Nob "One boy may be upgraded to Nob +00 points"

Pretty clear that a regular model becomes an enhanced model - unit size restrictions are not altered.

Stormboyz "Instead of a nob, one mob may be led by Boss Zagstruk 00 points"
Kommandos "Instead of a nob, one mob may be led by Boss Snikrot 00 points"

Note that both of these are 00 points, not +00 points. You do not upgrade a squad member in order to add Zagstruk for Snikrot. As such, they are going to be an extra model above the unit size restrictions.

/\ THIS! /\

Also, for what it's worth, straight from the INAT FAQ:

Q: Does taking Snikrot replace one of
the Kommandos in the mob?
A: No, Snikrot is taken in addition to the Kommandos in the
mob (although a Nob may not be included in the same mob)
[RAW].

The way i read it, you can take a full-size mob of 15 and then add in Zag. There's no +XX points because you can't pay the base points for a 16th Ork in the first place.

My opinion and the way I used to play him as the the codex states "instead of a nob" I would take the stormboys and add him in the count as he is part of the unit of stormboys just like if i had taken a nob.

theduncan wrote:I am sorry if my previous post was impolite, I was simply saying you shouldn't be obnoxious about it to a rules judge if they rule that he replaces a stormboy. That will tend to have them get annoyed quickly...

Dealing with TOs who are wrong is part and parcel of attending tournaments. It is very clear that zagstruk does not cost stormboyz+85 points