2000 pts Blood Angels DOA

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**Thamor**

Besides from having a huge weakness to Space wolves, is there anything i need to swap?

HQ
Librarian - Jump pack - Unleash Rage & Shield of Sang - 125

5 Honour Guard - Jump Packs - 3 Meltas - 195

Elites
2 Sanguinary Priests - Jump packs - 150

Troops
10 Assault Marines - Sgt + PF - 2 Meltas - 235
10 Assault Marines - Sgt + PF - 2 Meltas - 235
10 Assault Marines - Sgt + PF - 2 Meltas - 235
10 Assault Marines - Sgt + PF - 2 Meltas - 235

Fast Attack
5 Vanguard Vets - Jump Packs - Sgt + PW - PlasmaP 195
5 Vanguard Vets - Jump packs - Sgt + PW - PlasmaP 195
5 Vanguard Vets - Jump packs - Sgt + PW - PlasmaP 195

1995

**mrblacksunshine_1978**

I would drop at least 2 of the Vanguard Squard, add some PW in the Vanguard and do the same for the Honor Guard. Add a StormRaven w/Las/Multi/EA and inculde a Dreadnought with Blood Claws. place the Honor and the LIbby in StormRaven. You should have enought point, since you are only running with one HQ, and spend the extra points 50 so that Libby and use two PP. You shouldn't worry about THunderCavalry. I dont have a problem when i'm running a DoA list.

**Thamor**

The stormraven and the dreadnought having armour won't work in the DOA list as it's designed to make the enemies anti armourn useless, adding these two will give them something to shoot at, the stormraven is overrated. There are two power weapons in the VV squad already, might add a third.

**kaiservonhugal**

Is the Stormraven that bad? I just picked up two of them.

**xdefton3sx**

i bought one too anyone have any luck with them? do you need more than one to be effective?

**mercer**

Your Vanguard why they setup for shooting? They should be setup to assault so can assault when deep striking as you cannot shoot when you do that so a fist or hammer would be nice.

**Thamor**

xdefton3sx wrote:i bought one too anyone have any luck with them? do you need more than one to be effective?

kaiservonhugal wrote:Is the Stormraven that bad? I just picked up two of them.

Don't get me wrong the Stormraven can be amazing if used properly, My army doesn't really fit round them so i'm not that bothered. But you should always be using a mech list when using one, that way all the enemy fire won't be focused at the stormraven alone.

**VoidAngel**

No, you set the VV up to shoot so that they have something to do if they are out of range after the first assault - during which they usually obliterate what they touch.

**mercer**

They shouldn't be out of range assaulting if you place them right, they only get D6" scatter. The point in Vanguard is to assault after deep striking, and that's what they do well.

**Thamor**

Providing i get most units on the second turn from reserve (shouldn't be hard as i get rerolls) then this list in theory could be really nasty, but has anyone got any pros and cons and Mech and DOA lists? At the moment i'm kind of torn between the two, Whats pushing me towards the DOA list is the fact that i make enemy anti-tank bascially useless,I start the game with nothing on and my whole army is deep striking which i find very cool

**mercer**

Mech I've found is easier. You've got armour protection so the opponent needs tank busting weapons to get you out, if not you're safe. Only problem is assaulting, the tank needs to be stationary so you can get out but getting out from that tank is a 14" assault range while jump infantry is 18".

With DoA you can place the army anywhere you want, but it can come down piecemeal and without supporting units i.e Priests and Librarians which can be a problem. You could also risk losing some to deep strike scatter but this should be minimal thanks to 1D6" scatter.

You also don't make the enemy anti tank useless because it will be shooting at you when you deep strike in, it will kill your Marines easily, it just won't be hugely affective but hardly useless as you put.

**VoidAngel**

Mercer - you missed my point.

Here's what happens: Vanguard come down 4" from some enemy unit. They charge, and wipe that unit out. If the combat is multi-turn, and the other player is smart - he withdraws surrounding units so that when the combat ends...

The vets are standing around looking for another target. Sure, they can probably reach one, but if they can't - that's one expensive unit wasting a turn. Some plasma shooting is nice in this case.

In all, a good mech list is really tough to beat. I solved the assault problem by using zero transports. My troops were two small assault squads, Mephiston, 3-4 dreads, 2 Baals, and 3 vidicators. It gave people fits.

**mercer**

I didn't misunderstand your point I misunderstood what you meant, what you mean is they assault turn they come down, win combat and could shoot. If the Vanguard do wipe out the unit they're assaulting they will be shot or assaulted next turn anyway and probably won't have time to shoot either way.

**VoidAngel**

Gotcha. I really depends on the battlefield. So far, I have found that the ability to throw a couple of plasma bolts at the enemy helps post-arrival. Whether they are softening up that big unit of Necron warriors or immortals, or a full tac squad, or whatever. The sooner they wipe it out, the sooner they can be on to the next victim. With a priest nearby, the plasma isn't such a risk.

Just my preference, nothing more.

**mercer**

I'd rather use that heroic intervention as that's what you're paying the high points for, if not then you're not using them well nor to full affect and advantage.

**Thamor**

That's for the great pointers guys, really helping me decide what to choose, both lists seem to deal with the enemy in their own way and both seem to be very effective, I suppose if I take care with the deep striking DOA list and not make any silly moves it can be dangerous, I'll swap things about here and there but I do prefer the whole concept of DOA so I think I'll go with that. Possibly Mech later on.

Any things I can add or remove to make the list different?

**VoidAngel**

mercer - are you still not getting me? You absolutely DO use the intervention - but then what? It's a one trick pony. If things don't go exactly right, they are going to need that extra 6" of threat range pistols give them at some point in the game.

Thamor - give it a shot. See how it plays.

**mercer**

And you're not geting me. Vanguard are expensive because of that special rule if you're using them and not using that then you're wasting them and could get a normal unit, what's the ponit paying for a expensive unit with an ability and wasting it? Just get a normal Assault Squad with meltas and infernus in that case if you want to do that.

Also you're saying if things don't go right but the infernus is 6" that means you can assault...

**VoidAngel**

Both "JE" and "ZUS"!!

Dude, do I have to paint a freaking picture?! Have you played this game?

Sorry. Look, I feel like I am talking STRAIGHT PAST YOU.

Picture this:

VV's deepstrike next to a unit of Necron warriors. They assault and chew them up. This takes two turns with WWB and all that jazz. The Necron player pulls everything nearby back as far as he can, knowing he's got no chance against Space Marines with power weapons in assault.

The VVs finish off the warriors...and find that the nearest unit is now 20" away.

Choice 1: Jump 12" toward them and hurl insults.
Choice 2: Jump 12" toward them and hurl plasma.

(who said to only give them infernus pistols?)

**mercer**

Dude...Vanguard won't even survive that long!

**VoidAngel**

I played a game last Saturday in which the last two of ten were going strong on turn six. It depends on how you equip them, luck, what your fighting, and how you deploy.

They are a finesse unit. Used well and with a little luck - amazing. Without those...huge point sink.

**MrEconomics**

I'm with Mercer on the pistol debate. I get that you want to help the VV squad sustain it's usefullness, but I see the VV squad as a throwaway. I would suggest you drop the plasma pistols and use the points to upgrade to a PF, plus get a fourth meltagun in the Honor Guard.

I also think you have too many VV squads. I'd drop at least 1 if not 2, and add another Librarian plus another Assault Squad, maybe with flamers. I think it's important to have 2 libbys in a DoA list, since you really want one getting in on turn 2 for Shield.

As for Stormravens, I haven't used one yet, but my sense is that they need to be used in at least pairs. Otherwise they'll never get there. I would never take anything with an AV in a DoA list, though, since the main advantage is reducing the value of your opponent's anti-tank.

**VoidAngel**

Are people finding Shield that worthwhile?

**Iandroid**

I agree that the VV shouldn't have plasma pistols. If you're doing heroic intervention, you can't even shoot anyways, a power fist is a necessary if you want to assault any armor or a unit with an HQ in it.

But I have to agree with the previous statements that the whole point of having vanguard veterans in a blood angels army is heroic intervention.

Also.... it's prolly just me, but I always have felt that honor guard are a waste of points. I'd rather just get more assault troops, or a chaplain or reclusiarch or maybe another priest or something. Anyways, that's my opinion.

**necronsftw**

Shield works really while for me at least I run agaisnt mech marines lost like 6 guys out of 40 before i hit them up. Anyway yeah not to troll, but there is 0 reason for vanguards SHOULD NEVER take shooting weapons. Also they cannot use them Iandroid brought it up I am surprised mercer did not notice it when you HI you can not shout so if your out of assault you still cannot shot.

**Sageheart**

Give the Vanguard meltabombs, not plasma pistols, even one or two meltabombs can be nice! Besides that it is basically my own DOA list, I sometimes use dante instead of that 4th assault squad, and sometimes take out some vanguards for stormshields to guard dante thru wound allocation. but i think your list is good!

**VoidAngel**

You guys are not reading. I swear it.

Turn 1 (or whenever they come in): VV's deepstrike assault. Wipe out the target.
Turn 2 - next target is a good sized squad of something hard. Your five guys are not gonna kill it in a turn, so you're not getting everything out of them you could, are you? Unless...you can soften that squad of 10 immortals up with some...wait for it....PLASMA! Yes.

You're so smart.

**Caboose**

Actually, I think they are all reading it correctly, they are just saying that its a dumb idea. I see what you mean. Take plasma on them to soften up the target of their second assault, post HI assault. Or if you cannot assault something in a subsequent turn, you can use the plasma to shoot stuff.

They are right, its not a good idea. Just pay for weapons to make your HI assault count really good. Right them off after that. They are just in there to F-up your opponents plan. Thats it. They arent some huge game breaking unit of super-usefulness and unstoppability. Just let them go after they screw with your opponents plan.

Now stop telling everyone that they dont get it.

**Far Seer**

In my opinion, VV are best used as suicidal disruption units. Chuck a fist on the sergeant, 2 or 3 meltabombs and land them and try to get a multicharge on important enemy tanks and ranged units. This takes the pressure off the rest of your army and allows you to take less casualties when you deep strike. It's a rare day when a small unit of VV lives to survive its guns. you'll want to keep your VV units cheap, wen you start taking shiny toys, it is a huge point sink.

**mercer**

VoidAngel wrote:Are people finding Shield that worthwhile?

Shield is a pretty cool free power and can save your bacon sometimes.

VoidAngel wrote:You guys are not reading. I swear it.

Turn 1 (or whenever they come in): VV's deepstrike assault. Wipe out the target.
Turn 2 - next target is a good sized squad of something hard. Your five guys are not gonna kill it in a turn, so you're not getting everything out of them you could, are you? Unless...you can soften that squad of 10 immortals up with some...wait for it....PLASMA! Yes.

You're so smart.

We are. You're not. One thing you crucially miss in your plan and that's the opponent will shoot at them and maybe counter assault. Did you forget the opponent has a turn in your plan?