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Okay, this is the current plan for my 2ks worth of Dark Eldar

10 Warriors, 1 dark lance
-- Raider with night shields and flickerfields

10 Warriors, 1 dark lance
-- Raider with night shields and flickerfields

10 Wyches, haywire grenades, 1 razorflail, 1 hekatrix -- blast pistol, agoniser
-- Raider with night shields and flickerfields

Ravager, night shield and flickerfields

Ravager, night shield and flickerfields

Ravager, night shield and flickerfields

6 Reavers, 2 heat lances, 2 cluster caltrops

5 Incubi, Klaivex with demi klaives and onslaught

-- Raider flickerfields and grisly trophies

1 Archon -- blast pistol, power weapon, grenade launcher, ghost plate, soul trap and shadow field

8 trueborn -- 4 blasters, 2 darklances, 2 with pistol and cc weapon.
-- Raider with flickerfields

2 Haemonculus

1 -- venom blade and stinger pistol
1 -- casket of flensing.

venom blade haem. goes with Archon and Incubi, casket one goes with true born.

comes to, I hope/think 1997.

.. what do people think then ?

Ravagers and one or two of the warrior squads flit around my deployment zone, lancing away, with the reavers, wyches and Inucbi + Lord tearing up either one or both flanks.

Ideally the Incubi and wyches will "buddy" up with either of the trueborn or reavers, with the latter to crack open armour, and then the melee guys to charge in and finish them off.

Or against heavy elite infantry, Revears and Trueborn go hunting together.

Casket might give a nasty surprise to something, and gives me the option to split him off to, for example, hit any unit that disembarks post tank destruction.

The venom blade ain't all that, but might do something against a high T beastie, he's there really for the pain token, and to help the Archon survive a bit.

The only real big thing I dont like are the dark lance infantry. The idea of dark eldar sitting still to shoot off 1 to 2 weapons doesnt seem appealing when you have to pay quite a bit of points for them

Yeah.

I did wonder about splinter cannons, perhaps on one of the squads.

But I figure as well that this build gives me the option to deploy, for example, in cover and just use the raiders as "lite" (sic) Ravagers.. fireboats almost I guess, and still slap down some handy firepower. Potentially with either/both of the haem. with them for FnP if it'll be low S but high ROF weapons coming at me.

Looks solid. I've got suggestions, take'm or leave'm.
-You can shave a lot off points off this list without making it much worse. If you drop the caltrops, the NS on the raiders, haywires on the wyches, the demi-klaives, and the two dark lances on the trueborn; thats about 140 points... lets say you take, instead of 8 trueborn in a raider w/ 4 blasters, 2 venoms with 4 trueborn each with blasters. Your raider and trueborn are 226 points, and the two venoms squads are 346, so you get 4 more blasters, 1 more vehicle, and 4 splinter cannons You can put the 2nd haemonculus with the wyches, giving pain tokens to your troop choices is a really good idea. Also three troops is pretty slim in the first place; consider maybe taking something out and getting a 4th troop choice.

Cheers.

I'm still not terribly sold on the small units in venoms concept, I think they're a bot too vulnerable to taking casualties from their vehicle popping and running away.

After some reflection, I'm thinking of swapping the trueborn lances for splinter cannons, and with the points saved there and otherwise left over, buying them a dracon with a blast pistol. Still got decent -- and mobile -- anti tank, and with the meatshields... err... I mean normal squad members.. having pistols and cc weapons & the splinter cannons I'm capable of mugging an infantry unit too, especially with the help of the haem.

reds8n wrote:Okay, this is the current plan for my 2ks worth of Dark Eldar

10 Warriors, 1 dark lance
-- Raider with night shields and flickerfields

10 Warriors, 1 dark lance
-- Raider with night shields and flickerfields

10 Wyches, haywire grenades, 1 razorflail, 1 hekatrix -- blast pistol, agoniser
-- Raider with night shields and flickerfields

Ravager, night shield and flickerfields

Ravager, night shield and flickerfields

Ravager, night shield and flickerfields

6 Reavers, 2 heat lances, 2 cluster caltrops

5 Incubi, Klaivex with demi klaives and onslaught

-- Raider flickerfields and grisly trophies

1 Archon -- blast pistol, power weapon, grenade launcher, ghost plate, soul trap and shadow field

8 trueborn -- 4 blasters, 2 darklances, 2 with pistol and cc weapon.
-- Raider with flickerfields

2 Haemonculus

1 -- venom blade and stinger pistol
1 -- casket of flensing.

venom blade haem. goes with Archon and Incubi, casket one goes with true born.

comes to, I hope/think 1997.

.. what do people think then ?

Ravagers and one or two of the warrior squads flit around my deployment zone, lancing away, with the reavers, wyches and Inucbi + Lord tearing up either one or both flanks.

Ideally the Incubi and wyches will "buddy" up with either of the trueborn or reavers, with the latter to crack open armour, and then the melee guys to charge in and finish them off.

Or against heavy elite infantry, Revears and Trueborn go hunting together.

Casket might give a nasty surprise to something, and gives me the option to split him off to, for example, hit any unit that disembarks post tank destruction.

The venom blade ain't all that, but might do something against a high T beastie, he's there really for the pain token, and to help the Archon survive a bit.

Hmm.. Some general thoughts.

- Go for agoniser on the archon, and drop the soul trap to pay for it
- Drop the klaivex. It's OP. Unless you need to kill some serious stuff, a unit of five will do some serious damage anyway.
- Heat lances OR Cluster Caltrops. Never both. What do you want them to do?
- Haemonculi unit is a little random. That incubi unit is fine by itself. You could buy another archon for the price of them.

Seems good though! Both shields will really help you out, especially with the ravagers. Good luck!

Drop the klaivex. It's OP. Unless you need to kill some serious stuff

I find myself fighting Mephiston, Daemon princes and general Nurgle nastiness alot/with depressing regularity.

The caltrops are there really so I can do something whilst fleeing ... tactically withdrawing and repositioning.... the inevitable DSing 5 man assault squads and the like. I dig the idea of being able to hurt the enemy even when I can't shoot them.

Soul trap vs. agoniser.. yeah. bit torn. Figured I'd try the former at least for a while, the idea of a S6 or 10 high I character appeals greatly to me, even though I know he'll die to the first multi laser pointed at him.

Trusty old dice.

reds8n wrote: I'm still not terribly sold on the small units in venoms concept, I think they're a bot too vulnerable to taking casualties from their vehicle popping and running away.

The venom is more resiliant than the raider (it comes with flickerfields).
The venom is a smaller model making it easier to get cover from terrain.
Both models have the same AV
Overall, it seems like the venom is more resilient(ie, barely) than the raider.

The biggest challange with the venom is converting them. You need to use a raider and vyper kit to do it, and thats very pricy on the pocketbook.

reds8n wrote:

Drop the klaivex. It's OP. Unless you need to kill some serious stuff

I find myself fighting Mephiston, Daemon princes and general Nurgle nastiness alot/with depressing regularity.

The caltrops are there really so I can do something whilst fleeing ... tactically withdrawing and repositioning.... the inevitable DSing 5 man assault squads and the like. I dig the idea of being able to hurt the enemy even when I can't shoot them.

Soul trap vs. agoniser.. yeah. bit torn. Figured I'd try the former at least for a while, the idea of a S6 or 10 high I character appeals greatly to me, even though I know he'll die to the first multi laser pointed at him.

Trusty old dice.

Oh! Then that makes sense. Big nasties like those really suffer from that S5. I gotcha!

The more I think about it, at 2k, there's no reason not to use both. I absolutely LOVE caltrops, so I usually prefer those, but heat lances are really reliable, so both are a good idea

I've found the soul trap is much better against 'big' armies, like daemons, tyranids and armies with lots of special characters (BA, marines in general). The agoniser is better for high Toughness armies (marines). Both have their uses, and are pretty cheap. It's all up to your opponent, usually

The core of your list (dark lance warriors) is very deadly, and I like it alot. Trueborn are IMO, one of the best untis in the codex, and I think you're using them right

reds8n wrote: I find myself fighting Mephiston, Daemon princes and general Nurgle nastiness alot/with depressing regularity.

Vect is a good cure for Mephiston.

Vect goes first, hits 8/9 of the time and wounds on 2/3 of the time. Each round he will deliver ~4 wounds to Mephiston.
If Mephiston tranfixes Vect, then he rerolls all hits and wounds. If Vect not transfixed, he will need to take ~2.2 saves, otherwise he will be taking ~4.5 saves. If he fails one save, Vect is dead due to ID.

While its not a sure thing, Vect on average will win out over Mephiston.
The odds increase greatly if Mephiston has taken a wound or two from shooting. The odds decrease dramatically if Vect has lost his shadow field.
Vect is cheaper and allows you to steal the init 1/2 of the time.

* Edited to lower values you can take from the codex, such as # of attacks.

I like it overall though I wouldn't go for the Dracon (if you still plan on that) all he and the Sybarite do is add marginal CC capabilities and extra Ld, neither of which I think is needed. Sure they can take Blast Pistols but those are 6 inch range and one shot, I don't think they're really worth it IMO. I would remove the Hekatrix and Archon's pistols.

Also I would lose the CC weapons on the Trueborn, close combat is the last place you want them to be in. I would do 4 Trueborn with 4 Blasters in a Venom with dual Splinter Cannons and maybe even Nightshields. That gives you formidable anti-tank and the Venom unloads 24 poisoned shots. If you're worried about survivability you can give them the Haemonculus.

I used to be very much against the 10 man Lance squad since it was 115 points for single Lance shot, but I'm starting to warm up to the idea of a Lance squad in a Raider as a quasi Ravager. I need to test that out a bit more. Alternativley 2 Trueborn with Lances in a Raider is quite similar.

While it's pretty cheap do you really need a Stinger Pistol? It's only one shot after all, I don't think it's a must have but it probably isn't going to hamper your list either.

I think I would just lose Onslaught on the Incubi, I don't think Klaivex + Demiklaives is too much overkill but anything beyond that might be.

The Wyches' Raider probably doesn't need Nightshields if it's transporting a melee squad. It'll be right up in the enemy's face at which point the 6 inch range reduction won't help too much. On the topic of Raider upgrades you probably don't need Grisly Trophies either, though having them isn't really a problem, it's just that most of your guys are at Ld 8-9 which is high enough (in the games I've played at least)

Finally while expensive the Huskblade has good synergy with the Soul Trap if you're interested in that.

labmouse42 wrote:The biggest challange with the venom is converting them. You need to use a raider and vyper kit to do it, and thats very pricy on the pocketbook.

Do you really NEED to use a vyper and a raider ? if so my venoms are illegal.......

There is currently no model for the Venom (its expected some time in the next few months), so you are free to make them however you want. We only have the drawing in the codex to go on (it does look like a Vyper hence why people tend to use them as a base) and as long as it looks close people shouldn't have a problem.

As a general rule you should never taking both Night Shields and Flickerfields on the same vehicle, and its perfectly fine not to take either of them if the vehicle isn't that important (i.e the Warriors Raiders, which they won't be using to get anywhere). Flickerfields go on Raiders which plan on pushing forward (usually Wyches etc), Night Shields go on stuff like Ravagers which are going to be hanging back (so might actually be able to dodge some 36" range shooting). Your backfield units are much more likely to get cover saves anyway (from terrain and the bunch of Raiders you have in front of you) and Nightshields don't help in close (melta doesn't need 2D6 to kill you).

Dark Lance Warriors are fine, they are good for sitting on backfield objectives and taking pot shots at armour, which for 115pts is fine. If anything wanders too close then they can still shred infantry if they need to. Never deploy them in the Raider though, sit them in cover and let the Raider move around (no point removing its mobility when you don't need to).

The Wyches are also good, if somewhat expensive. The Venom Blade is generally a better buy than the Agoniser (far cheaper, light reduction in killing power vs MEQ for an increase vs GEQ and more likely to get a buff from Drugs). As you have Haywire Grenades then I would probably lose the Blast Pistol, you are usually going to be better served running and assaulting than using the very expensive pistol. I would certainly suggest you get at least one more scoring unit, Dark Eldar are incredibly fragile and you can't get away with 3 scoring units like Marines can. You probably want another unit of Wyches or similar which can push forward while your Dark Lance Warriors grab your home objectives.

Reavers should either be anti tank or anti infantry. You are never going to be able to use both the Heat Lances and the Caltrops so you are better off just taking one and sticking to that role.

Not really sure if the Haemonculi are worth it in the roles you are using them tbh. The Incubi don't really gain much from getting FNP, if they lose their transport before they hit a unit it won't save them and once they hit a unit they get a token anyway (and then probably get torrented to death either way, so having 2 at that point won't really matter). It certainly doesn't help the Archon much, as FNP after failing a Shadowfield save is still a busted Shadowfield. The Trueborn don't get much out of having FNP either, but I guess it lets you safely dump them out of the Raider to maximise your range.

Considering take the Duke instead of your Archon if you want to run a big unit of Trueborn like that, 3+ poison is fun. The only thing you really lose out on is the Grenade Launcher, which isn't the end of the world (just find them something to assault in the open, or tag them in together with some Wyches in a way which prevent them being hit by too many attacks).

I was ironic and just making a point in that you dont need to use a vyper and a raider to make them....

labmouse42 wrote:

reds8n wrote: I'm still not terribly sold on the small units in venoms concept, I think they're a bot too vulnerable to taking casualties from their vehicle popping and running away.

The venom is more resiliant than the raider (it comes with flickerfields).
The venom is a smaller model making it easier to get cover from terrain.
Both models have the same AV
Overall, it seems like the venom is more resilient(ie, barely) than the raider.

The biggest challange with the venom is converting them. You need to use a raider and vyper kit to do it, and thats very pricy on the pocketbook.

Red wasn't discussing the resilience of the Raider/Venom, but the squad inside. With only 5 people on board, it would be very easy for a wrecked Venom to result in a fleeing squad. Also, the smaller squad size is much easier to kill by shooting or assaulting, even if they survive the wrecked vehicle.

reds8n wrote:Okay, this is the current plan for my 2ks worth of Dark Eldar

HQ
1 Archon -- blast pistol, power weapon, grenade launcher, ghost plate, soul trap and shadow field

2 Haemonculus

1 -- venom blade and stinger pistol
1 -- casket of flensing.

Elites
5 Incubi, Klaivex with demi klaives and onslaught

-- Raider flickerfields and grisly trophies

8 trueborn -- 4 blasters, 2 darklances, 2 with pistol and cc weapon.
-- Raider with flickerfields

Troops
10 Warriors, 1 dark lance
-- Raider with night shields and flickerfields

10 Warriors, 1 dark lance
-- Raider with night shields and flickerfields

10 Wyches, haywire grenades, 1 razorflail, 1 hekatrix -- blast pistol, agoniser
-- Raider with night shields and flickerfields

Fast Attack
6 Reavers, 2 heat lances, 2 cluster caltrops

Heavy Support
Ravager, night shield and flickerfields

Ravager, night shield and flickerfields

Ravager, night shield and flickerfields


venom blade haem. goes with Archon and Incubi, casket one goes with true born.

Sorted it a little to help with my own analysis.

Straight off the bat, my first thought is to drop the Lances on the Trueborn. With Lances equipped, the unit is looking to act as a Sniper Boat. However, Blasters are too short range,a nd you can't move the vehicle and fire the Dark Lances at the same time. Either drop the Warriors altogether, or swap them for a pair of Splinter Cannons. That allows the unit to multi-task as appropriate.

Secondly, the Wyches are far more vulnerable than the Incubi, and as they go for the throat, will probably be shot down a lot faster than the Trueborn. The Haemonculi you've picked seem to be tacked on slightly. Drop a single Wych, and swap one of the Haemonculi over, and give him a Liquifier Gun.

Thirdly, swap the Wyches Razorflail to a Shardnet and Impaler. You'll be looking to use that squad to grind down monstrous creatures, walkers and the like ideally. In that regard, lessening the number of incoming attacks is infinitely more valuable.

Fourthly, The Reavers have inferior killing power to the Trueborn with regards to shooting, and they're not tooled out for combat (with agoniser and whanot). Drop the second Haemonculi, and either amplify the squads combat ability if you intend to use it in that role or (and I'd prefer this one), swap it for a second Trueborn squad with Blasters/splinter Cannons.

I'd make comments with regards to the large squads approach, but you've already specified your preferences with regards to that.

reds8n wrote:
I find myself fighting Mephiston, Daemon princes and general Nurgle nastiness alot/with depressing regularity.

Trusty old dice.

I've found a great answer to these big nasties are venoms. I'm one of those who swear by my 5 warrior with a blaster in a venom squads. The venom puts 4 wounds on anything a turn at 36 inches and the ability to move 12 inches while shooting. The venom can slow down to allow the embarked warriors to fire for even more poisoned goodness. Yes, spinlter weapons allows saves - no make 30 of them .

I've had good returns with reavers with caltrops. Everytime I've slowed them down to shoot they die the next turn though.

As labmouse stated, Vect is an absolute beast. We wins combats by himself, just have a squad of wyches with him to ensure not too many attacks come back on him.

If you want a large squad as an objective holder - try 20 warriors with 2 Dark lances and and attached Hammy. It's a ton of points put if deployed in cover will be almost impossible to get rid of. Even deepstriking flamers/hvy flamers you still get the FNP on. And then you can target 18 double tapping splinter rifles on the offending unit.