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I've been reading the Space Marine Codex and in all the Sergeant wargear it says he can chose to replace his bolt pistol and or Boltgun for such and such.

Does that mean I could change his pistol for say a power fist and also trade his boltgun for say another power fist? Or trade both of those for 2 combi Plasmas or 1 combi plasma and 1 combi Melta, etc.?

Hmm. I never thought about that. I don't like the and/or wording in the first place, as the following sentences could come out of it:

"The Space Marine Sergeant may replace his bolt gun (and) bolt pistol with (a power weapon)" ---implying you gave up 2 guns and get a sword

as well as this one:

"The Space Marine Sergeant may replace his bolt gun (or) bolt pistol with (a power weapon)" ---implying that he can't give up both guns, only one or the other, and he gets a sword.

So combined, the two variations of "and/or" actually mean he can either trade both guns for a sword, or only one or the other gun for a sword. (or axe or fist or plas pistol etc).

The implication is that he can trade 1 or both of them away. It is not specific as to getting two objects in return, but I think the intention was to save page space rather than two lists (one for boltpistol trade-offs and one for bolter tradeoffs). I have no doubt they didn't intend this grammaticaly vague misinterpretation, and you get 2 weapon trade-ins for 2 weapon upgrades if you want. 76 points worth of sarge with his two powerfists woo hoo!

Guitardian wrote:So combined, the two variations of "and/or" actually mean he can either trade both guns for a sword, or only one or the other gun for a sword. (or axe or fist or plas pistol etc).

That's exact;y what it means. But it's not limited to a one-time-only deal.

So you can trade one or both weapons for the first sword. And then you still have another weapon that you can trade for another.

I just like the thought of having 3 Plasma guns or 3 Melta guns in one squad

Of course, only 2 could be fired in any given turn; without special rules models are only allowed to fire 1 weapon per turn.

Usually all a Marine player needs lol

any time a codex says And/Or and the model has 2 weapons listed avaliable for swapping then you may take 2 of any of the options below.


this is allowed because of certain weapons needing a duplicate for getting +1A in CC. Power fists, THs, and LCs namely.

Codex Blood Angels says:

-- Where an option states that you may exchange one weapon 'and/or' another, you may replace either, niether, or both provided you pay the points cost. -- (page 81)

I would assume the same is true for other army lists.

So in the case of the Sergeant he can keep his boltgun and bolt pistol, and take a combi melta, and a plasma pistol and power sword and 2x power fists. So long as you pay for it all and model it on there shouldn't be a problem.

So far as I can understand, the only function and/or serves is that it allows players to remove some of the default wargear for modeling and WYSIWYG Nazism purposes. Otherwise read it as "You may freely buy any of the below"

No, the Neither in that sentence is that you are not required to replace any weapons, paying no cost and getting no special weapons in return.

You may replace the Boltgun for anything on the list.

You may replace the Bolt pistol for anything on the list.

You may choose not to replace either for nothing on the list.

You may replace both the boltgun and the bolt pistol for any 2 items on the list, which may be duplicate items.

Hmmm yeah... that makes sense actually, if you allow for huge amounts of redundancy.

Why go to the trouble of writing 'You may exchange ... neither' when the phrase 'You may exchange' already covers the eternal possibly that you also may not. There is also this part about So long as you pay the points... I'm not saying you are wrong, but I wish games workshop would just be clear about what they mean rather than squandering time and print repeating obvious stuff. Some of my own Squads are already modeled carrying 3rd weapons because of this.

Another possibility is that:

+ You may exchange both your Boltgun and Bolt pistol for a single weapon from the list (If you so choose).

I see nothing that states you have to exchange 2 for 2, so 2 for 1 should be acceptable. But that also tentatively leaves the possibility of swapping 1 for 2 or 2 for 3.

+ You may exchange both your Boltgun and Bolt pistol for any number of weapons from the list (providing you pay the points).

I'm really not sure now, the only thing that makes me feel your interpretation is more correct, is that it allows the least possible room for creativity, which sounds most like Games Workshop. But I'm still not convinced.

When you consider the possibilities for terminator armor or dreadnought armament, certain right hand weapons cost different than left hand, One arm can take certain options and the other can take certain different options. This is not the case for Sarge, so to save page space having two lists like for termies or dreads, they could have said "may replace one or both weapons, each with a selection from this list" or they could just say 'and/or' which, while grammatically vague, at least everyone should know what it means.

Previous versions of the rules were more clear on this, though I'm sure that RAI, the following still apply:
*A model may only carry one gun that is larger than pistol sized (basic/special/heavy).
*A model armed with a basic/special/heavy weapon may never gain +1 attack for multiple melee weapons.

So you can't take 2 combi-weapons, you can't take 2 speacial weapons (melta/plasma/flamer) etc

If you take a (eg) boltgun or meltagun, there is no point taking 2 swords as you're always holding the rifle in one hand.

TBH though, I never actually liked this ruling - especially as there are some citadel minatures with a rifle sized weapon slung across their back with a sholder strap. E.G the Necromunda Escher leader with a boltgun slung across her back, holding a pistol in one hand and pointing with the other.

EDIT: Supporting this rule was a specific exception in the 3rd edition Space Wolf rule that allowed boltgun-armed Space Wolves to wield the boltgun by the pistol-grip and gain +1 attack (as long as they hadn't assaulted that turn)

None of that applies, "RAI" or not (and it really isnt RAI)

Limits on handedness, size of weapons etc are gone. WOlf guard can all have 2 combi meltas if they want.

Calgar has 2 powerfists and a powersword, so the # of weapon restriction on models is clearly no longer in effect. I think the last time weapon size was even a consideration was back in 3rd.

karlosovic wrote:Previous versions of the rules were more clear on this, though I'm sure that RAI, the following still apply:
*A model may only carry one gun that is larger than pistol sized (basic/special/heavy).
*A model armed with a basic/special/heavy weapon may never gain +1 attack for multiple melee weapons.

So you can't take 2 combi-weapons, you can't take 2 speacial weapons (melta/plasma/flamer) etc

If you take a (eg) boltgun or meltagun, there is no point taking 2 swords as you're always holding the rifle in one hand.

TBH though, I never actually liked this ruling - especially as there are some citadel minatures with a rifle sized weapon slung across their back with a sholder strap. E.G the Necromunda Escher leader with a boltgun slung across her back, holding a pistol in one hand and pointing with the other.

EDIT: Supporting this rule was a specific exception in the 3rd edition Space Wolf rule that allowed boltgun-armed Space Wolves to wield the boltgun by the pistol-grip and gain +1 attack (as long as they hadn't assaulted that turn)

Previous editions hold no bearing on the current edition; In 4th I could have a Tactical Squad Veteran Sgt on a Bike riding in a rhino; this edition I cannot(for several reasons)

Also in third edition Rapid fire worked vastly different from the way it does now(1 shot at up to 12" if you moved, 2 @ up to 12" when standing still, 1 at full range, beyond 12" if standing still)

In 5th edition we re-discovered "holster/strap technology" meaning you can have 3+ weapons any number of which can be non-pistol, Pistol, or CCW and so long as only 1 of your CCW is a Special CCW(or at least if you have 2 specials they are both the same) You can gain the 2 CCW attack bonus; even if you fired a non-pistol weapon before you assaulted(so long as you are capable of assaulting be that the weapon was assault, or you are relentless).

so, a combimelta and a power weapon are legal?

yeah.

martin74 wrote:so, a combimelta and a power weapon are legal?

I can't think of a case where this wasn't always legal - the question has evolved to be more about whether or not you would receive +1 attack for ALSO carrying a pistol - a question which also seems to have been answered for the current rules

pg. 42 is very clear about which weapons can be used in combination to gain an extra attack.