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Testing DoA again..

Blood Angels "Descent of Angels" - 2,000 points

HQ


Librarian - jump pack, shield of sanguinus & unleash rage

Librarian - jump pack, shield of sanguinus & unleash rage

Honour Guard - jump pack & 4 x meltaguns

Elite

2 x Sanguinary Priests - jump packs

Troops

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - sgt w/ power fist & infernus pistol

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - sgt w/ power fist & infernus pistol

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - sgt w/ power fist

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x flamers - sgt w/ power weapon

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x flamers - sgt w/ power weapon

Fast Attack

5 x Vanguard - jump packs, 2 x power weapons, power fist - sgt w/ power fist

Total: 2,000


Tyranids "Hive Fleet Kraken" - 2,000 points


HQ

Hive Tyrant - 2 x twin-linked devourers, old adversary & armoured shell

Tyrant Guard - lash whip

Tervigon - crushing claws, adrenal glands, toxin sacs & catalyst

Elite

2 x Hive Guard

2 x Hive Guard

2 x Hive Guard

Troops

Tervigon - crushing claws, adrenal glands, toxin sacs & catalyst

Tervigon - crushing claws, adrenal glands, toxin sacs & catalyst

10 x Termagants

10 x Termagants

8 x Genestealers

8 x Genestealers

Heavy Support

Carnifex - 2 x twin-linked devourers
Carnifex - 2 x twin-linked devourers

Total: 1,994


Game - Seize Ground & Pitched Battle

Deployment

Tyranids won the roll off and decided to go second. Objectives were placed in the shrine and basilica tower ruins which were in the centre of the board, the other in a factorum just outside the tyranids deployment zone.

Tyranids deployed putting a troop Tervigon in the factorum ruin auto claiming the objective, a wall of Termagants spread out giving cover to Hive Guard which in turn gave cover to Tervigon and the Carnifexes, the Tyrant and Guard got cover from the Termagants. The Genestealers infilitrate as no Angels are on the board and claim the other two objectives at the top of the ruins.

Turn 1

Tyranids remain static with Tervigons spawning about 30 Termagants between them, the HQ Tervigon burns out. Feel no pain is cast on each Tervigon too.

Turn 2

All three melta Assault Squads arrive from reserves landing on target or almost on target near the Tervigon on the factorum objective, idea is mass melta will kill it and cause plenty of wounds on several Termagants close by - one unit has direct shots so no cover, the others will be giving cover saves and one infernus is out of range.

Shooting, thanks to Angels bad luck and cover saves the Tervigon takes a single wound.

Tyranids turn more Termagants are spawned ready to swamp the Blood Angels.

Shooting Hive Tyrant tries paroxysm on the melta squad which can directly see the Tervigon, it rolls a double 6, but with a salvo from itself and supporting Carnifex it leaves the squad with half left, the squad passes morale. The other two squads get shot by a combined fire from Hive Guard, mass fleshborers and the other Carnifex, both squads remain.

In assault the Tyrant and Carnifex charge the Assault Squad, they all die. The Termagants charge both the other squads, one squad is reduced to 50% and fails morale and falls back while the other squad remains locked in combat with only 4 Marines left - the combo of Tervigon and Hive Tyrant gave the Termagants some massive killing power this turn in assault.

Turn 3

The remaining Angels come down from reserve with the two flamer Assault Squads landing pretty much on target near some Termagant squads while the Honour Guard and Vanguard deep strike into the Tyranid horde landing by the Tervigon in the factorum ruin. The falling back squad auto regroups and moves ready to shoot and assault the 'Gant squad which they just ran away from.

Shooting the Honour Guard blast the Carnifex supporting the Tyrant, bad dice rolls sees a single wound on it. Flamers roar out leaving two Termagants left from one squad and wiping out another leaving just cinders.

In assault the Vanguard go to assault the Tervigon, they roll a double 2 for terrain test and don't make it. The 5 man squad which was falling back assaults and kills the Termagants in revenge, while the already raging fight between Termagants and Assault Marines rages on, though a single Termagant remains

Tervigons spawn more Termagants to pile into the existing fight with the single Termagant and Assault Marines spawning 11 of them while another 10 pop out of the other Tervigon ready to charge a flamer Assault Squad. The Hive Tyrant moves towards the 5 man Assault Squad which just killed Termagants as the Carnifex eyes up the Vanguard and the Tervigon on the factorum eyes up the Honour Guard with Hive Guard support. Feel no pain is attempted to be dished out but the psychic hoods get blocked by all attempts.

Shooting the Hive Tyrant manages to get paroxysm off and hits the squad with devourers killing a single Marine. Carnifex kills two Vanguard with devourers, they pass morale, while the Honour Guard lose a single Marine thanks to combined salvo of stingler salvo and impaler cannon. The two flamer Assault Squads get blasted by mix of fleshborers, stinger salvo and devourers with only the squad on the left flank losing a single Marine.

In assault Tyrant charges and wipes out the 5 man Assault Squad. Termagants charge and kill all but one Marine, the Marine fails morale and runs off. The Honour Guard get pasted, the Priest survives but runs off. The Vanguard get smashed by the Carnifex, while the Priest attached to a flamer Assault Squad is killed, though the fight rages on with only the Librarian and 4 Marines left. On the left flank the two Termagants, Carnifex and Tervigon start cutting Marines down, though both Termagants die.

Turn 4

No shooting from Angels, everyone is either in combat or dead. The Priest and solo Marine continue to fall back as there's Tyranids within 6" stopping them regrouping.

Assault the Angels numbers dwindle with the Librarian reminding only from one flamer Assault Squad and the other squad sees just the Sgt, Priest, Marine and wounded Librarian left - combat rages on.

Tyranids turn the Hive Tyrant shoots and kills the falling back solo Marine while mass Termagants kill the Priest.

In assault the solo Librarian is deaded as a dead thing and only a brave Sgt out of the entire Blood Angels army remains against the might of a Carnifex and Tervigon.

Turn 5

Sgt dies :(

Summary

Well that went really really badly for Blood Angels. The plan was to deep strike and blast the Tervigon to pieces which would have mauled some Termagants in the synapse back lash, that failed. The next plan was to nuke or seriously wound the Carnifex and assault the Tervigon with the Vanguard - that failed too. The only real damage Blood Angels did was wiping out a entire Termagant unit with flamers, finishing one off in assault and leave one brood with a last 'Gant standing, it was just utter carnage and the Genestealers didn't even get into assault!

I think what I should have done is deep striked the Blood Angels about 18" away. This means they could have worked on blasting the Genestealers thinning them out and then assaulting them in cover, either way the 'Stealers would go first but at least those two objectives could have been contested or claimed that way the Tyranids would have to come to the Angels and the Angels wouldn't have been mauled so much from turn 2 if the opponent cannot reach them.

I'm going to give DoA one more try and next time deep strike away from the opponent, but still with enough range so the Angels can get into range to shoot and hopefully assault at least then certain weapons will be out of range and the opponent will have to move towards the Angels and they cannot be assaulted, at least not with a entire force. Better tactics next time!

Would have benefitted from your normal photo guide to see deployment of DS units.

I really think you took too many troops. If you're limited by your models you should look into drop AMs for another honor guard and another unit of VV, as give them a couple Storm Shields so they don't get eaten by PWs and the like.

One thing to bear in mind is that using DoA doesn't mean that you HAVE to deep strike. Against some armies you want to start on the board and use your mobility to hit them before they hit you - DSing right next to a bunch of Monstrous Creatures just means that they're going to charge you.

Have a read of these 1750pts batreps by a pretty good DoA player: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=82164

Pay particular attention to game 5 as well - that's the one where he sacks off the DSing plan.

Theduke07 wrote:I really think you took too many troops. If you're limited by your models you should look into drop AMs for another honor guard and another unit of VV, as give them a couple Storm Shields so they don't get eaten by PWs and the like.

DoA lists need as many models as possible, not small squads which cost me the same points as a single troop choice.

Corrode wrote:One thing to bear in mind is that using DoA doesn't mean that you HAVE to deep strike. Against some armies you want to start on the board and use your mobility to hit them before they hit you - DSing right next to a bunch of Monstrous Creatures just means that they're going to charge you.

Have a read of these 1750pts batreps by a pretty good DoA player: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=82164

Pay particular attention to game 5 as well - that's the one where he sacks off the DSing plan.

I'll take a look, thanks.

I don't know this list just seem to have enough dead killy especially at 2000 points. Very few units to support the ASM doesn't seem very effective in an already hard to play well style of play.

Assault Marines only need Priests and Librarians to support them.

mercer wrote:Assault Marines only need Priests and Librarians to support them.

It seems some missile launcher support would have done wonders for the plan to kill the tervigon. Support doesn't just mean rules buffs.

mercer wrote:DoA lists need as many models as possible, not small squads which cost me the same points as a single troop choice.

In this situation, being assaulted by multiple monstrous creatures, SS would have probably saved a few guys instead of no armor save, no feel no pain.

Consider taking the above advice.

rdlb wrote:

mercer wrote:Assault Marines only need Priests and Librarians to support them.

It seems some missile launcher support would have done wonders for the plan to kill the tervigon. Support doesn't just mean rules buffs.

mercer wrote:DoA lists need as many models as possible, not small squads which cost me the same points as a single troop choice.

In this situation, being assaulted by multiple monstrous creatures, SS would have probably saved a few guys instead of no armor save, no feel no pain.

Consider taking the above advice.

Missile launchers do not go in DoA lists. Reason is first turn Devs will get shot up by enemy fire as no other targets, or they stay in reserve but come in as and when like the others and cannot fire. Missile launchers go ni jump lists not DoA, though I am strongly considering a jump list instead.

Okay I think we have an issue of what the hell you mean by DOA list? Does that mean an all-deep striking list? Because just because you use DOA doesn't mean they all have to deep strike. No different then a mech list that isn't just troops in transports. It's just the bulk of the list.

Yes, having the choice to deep strike is a big benefit. Just choosing to deep strike all the time is not a great plan. A DOA list is a jump list that can deep strike.

I think you are being to strict with your play style. Basically, you want a list that will ds and win?

I like your list even though it's not how I run my DoA army. You have lots and lots of close range shooting which is great versus horde. As you have noted already your maim mistake was deepstrking in too close to the enemy lines and as you've said if you had deepstriked in such a manner to keep the Nidz out of your grill following the first drop I think it would have swung your way. My advice is don't give up on DoA yet... You might lose your next 2-3 games but you'll be learning all the while. I think that over the course of your next 3-5 games you'll figure it all out then BOOM it's dead on arrival for your opponents. I know you can do it too.

Theduke07 wrote:Okay I think we have an issue of what the hell you mean by DOA list? Does that mean an all-deep striking list? Because just because you use DOA doesn't mean they all have to deep strike. No different then a mech list that isn't just troops in transports. It's just the bulk of the list.

Descent of Angels where all units can the ability to deep strike. Yes I know they do not have to, but when I chose to those Devs cannot deep strike which means they will get shot to gak the first turn. Not good. And a mech list without troops in transports is a hybrid list

rdlb wrote:Yes, having the choice to deep strike is a big benefit. Just choosing to deep strike all the time is not a great plan. A DOA list is a jump list that can deep strike.

I think you are being to strict with your play style. Basically, you want a list that will ds and win?

Yes I know deep striking all the time isn't ace, but when you have that chance to deep strike you don't want the Devs alone.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:I like your list even though it's not how I run my DoA army. You have lots and lots of close range shooting which is great versus horde. As you have noted already your maim mistake was deepstrking in too close to the enemy lines and as you've said if you had deepstriked in such a manner to keep the Nidz out of your grill following the first drop I think it would have swung your way. My advice is don't give up on DoA yet... You might lose your next 2-3 games but you'll be learning all the while. I think that over the course of your next 3-5 games you'll figure it all out then BOOM it's dead on arrival for your opponents. I know you can do it too.

I'm probably going to go jump list, incoming bat rep will be up shortly

I wouldn't have deepstruck against that army. In fact, Id on't think I'd do it against any Tyranids really. You move better than them, so you're going to get to pick your fights when it comes to it. you also have your whole army all the time, which gives you much better mutual support than coming in piecemeal (even a big wave then a little wave as is often the case with DoA isn't as good as everything at once). Maybe deepstrike the Honor Guard so they can get strong Melta shots into an important location, but even then the important bugs are 6 wounds each. Just because you have DoA and your army can make use of it doesn't mean you need to do it. Plenty of cases arise where you're going to be better off running across the table. To me, the Nids matchup is definitely one of them. Their shooting is not scary at all, and you really need the mutual unit support to handle their nonsense in CC.

Infantry heavy armies really put DoA lists up against the wall, it's a tough one. DoA does best against mixed armies, but suffers against tons of guys and tons of vehicles.

I agree that versus horde it's not imperative to deepstrike (except of course for Vanguard vets if you run them) but on the other hand doing so will keep your opponent guessing... They don't know where you are going to arrive and that could lead to some mistakes on their part that you could then exploit.

Deep striking against Tyranids isn't the best idea. My plan was to hopefully nuke a Tervigon with meltas and with Vanguard support which would have taken out a great deal of Termagants leaving only two monstrous creatures on that flank which in no way could have dealt with the remaining Angels as a whole. Though my plan failed thanks to bad dice rolls :(

mercer wrote:
DoA lists need as many models as possible, not small squads which cost me the same points as a single troop choice.

Not always- your vanguard vet squad could use and benefit greatly from equipting them all with stormshields so they have a chance with that 2 Pfists.

Small squads have their role, but its more dedicated.

List doesn't need two Vanguard squads and Vanguard need to be kept cheap as the points on them can soon add up to sillyness.

Vanguard as cheap as possible doesn't add anything useful besides the one time assault. Whole point is to tie up, survive and win.

What Vanguard do add is a cheap one time assault unit costing very little. Vanguard dropping down with a few power weapons and power fists can smash a unit or important tank to pieces costing hardly anything. With the damage done they will attract the attention of the opponent and even with storm shields they will go down. If they are to tie up they need to deal less damage to the enemy models or else they're free to be shot at which means they aren't tying anything up.

Small Vanguard units can do a whole lot more than charge and die.

They make roadblocks, create combats around your drop-frozen units and can tie up important enemy guns. All of these things can be very important. Landing in the SW player's backfield and charging into his Long Fang units without him getting a chance to react is potent, and saves your guys from a lot of casualties. Charging them into a parking lot will disable 2-3 vehicles per unit of VV most of the time, which helps minimize the return fire on your other units and can clip the mobility out of the mech column for a turn.

Making combats in front of your frozen units helps stop them from getting charged and makes cover for them so they're harder to kill with shooting.

If the VV survive 2 combats in any of the above circumstances your opponent then has to donate time and guns to killing them, which they will probably not want to do when there are 30-40 Assault Marines/Honor Guard/Librarians/Priests in his face as well.

HOWEVER: It is a certain style of list and play that makes these units work, and that style is VERY aggressive and risky. Its an "all in" approach that, in my opinion, fails more often than succeeds.

I'm playing 1 unit of VV at this point, and they have a bunch of Storm Shields and such, I use them as my combat unit rather than interference. They're probably sub par for this, but in a jump/DoA type of list all of the options for a heavy hitter feel overpriced.

Yes, that's what I said, more or less