Are throwing axes strictly ranged?

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**Squash**

Quick question, do you still get the +1 strength in close combat with a throwing axe?

**Stoopkid**

A throwing axe falls under the category of 'throwing weapons' and can only be used as a ranged weapon.

**Squash**

Where does it say that?

**Stoopkid**

BRB page 91. It doesn't state that it can only be used as a ranged weapon, but by it saying that it is a 'throwing' weapon, it is to be only used in ranged combat.

**Squash**

I'm on page 91, and I don't follow the logical cogency of what you just said. 'throwing weapons' is a different weapon, listed above the Throwing Axes. In neither the 'Throwing Weapons' or 'Throwing Axes' descriptions on that page does it say that throwing weapons can only be used as a ranged weapon. I'm not saying you're wrong, I suspect you're right, but I'd like to know where the rule is.

**Stoopkid**

No, I know 'throwing weapons' is a different weapon, but 'throwing axes' have 'throwing' in the name, clearly stating that they are a ranged weapon. Can you CC with a rifle? I have no idea where the exact rule is stating that you cannot use ranged weapons as CC weapons, but, it has to be somewhere.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is something I found on another forum, taken from GW Q&A

Q. Can Centigors armed with throwing axes count as having two hand weapons in close combat?
A. No! They are throwing axes.

And only the units who either come equipped with two hand weapons or who can buy additional handweapons can fight with a weapon in both hands...

and

The most sensible interpretation is that throwing axes are hand weapons that cannot be used in combat. "throwing weapons cannot be used in close combat" is an absolute statement, the "or" that follows that does not change that fact. End of discussion.

**Oscarius**

There is no rule that say that a ranged weapon can be used in close combat, but there isn't a rule that state that they can either.
If the rules doesn't say that you can do a thing then you can't do it!
Also, if you want to use throwing axes in combat you'll have to accept handgunners and jezzails using their ranged weapons in combat...

**Squash**

Stoopkid wrote:No, I know 'throwing weapons' is a different weapon, but 'throwing axes' have 'throwing' in the name, clearly stating that they are a ranged weapon.

Right, I'm not saying it's not a ranged weapon. If you take a glance at the Subject line, you'll see if I'm asking if the weapon is strictly ranged.

Can you CC with a rifle?

Of course you can. Do you think bayonets are decorative?

Q. Can Centigors armed with throwing axes count as having two hand weapons in close combat?
A. No! They are throwing axes.

...Right. I never asked "do throwing axes count as hand weapons?", what I asked is if they functioned as throwing axes in close combat, a special weapon that offers +1 strength. How is that ruling useful to what we're talking about?

The most sensible interpretation is that throwing axes are hand weapons that cannot be used in combat. "throwing weapons cannot be used in close combat" is an absolute statement, the "or" that follows that does not change that fact. End of discussion.

I think you should of prefaced here that unlike the last quote you provided, this one was not from a GW source. This was one of many contributions by Warseers members (this one banned, for what it's worth) which I found from googling what you pasted. I don't understand how he came to this basis, especially since what GW clearly did establish (and you brought to my attention) is that throwing axes are certainly NOT hand weapons. They're throwing axes.

Sorry, but again I don't see the logic thread you're providing.

**Lehnsherr**

Pg 89

Range
The range tells you at what distance the weapon can be used. If a weapon's range is 'combat' then it can only be used in close combat. If the range is a number of some kind, it is a missile weapon.

You do not have permission to use missile weapons in close combat. The throwing axe is a missile weapon, you cannot use the throwing axe in close combat.

**Edit**
For the sake of completeness...

Logically speaking one could make the argument that a throwing axe could be used in close combat. It has no backing in the rules, but it would be logical. That being said however, the Throwing axe generates the +1 strength precisely because it is thrown. A warrior could give it everything on the throw, as there would be no fear of a retaliatory strike from an enemy. A throwing axe used in close combat would have no functional difference from that of a hand axe, which function like regular close combat weapons.

If anything (from a logical stand point not a rules standpoint) throwing axes should count additionally as hand weapons. The only argument you might make is that then, a model with them, should be able to fight as if he had two weapons. Luckily for us, the FAQ already provided answers that question.

**Squash**

Ah! THAT makes sense. Thanks Lehnsherr!

**Leith**

Im confused as to why anyone would think you could use ranged weapons in cc. Its something of a logical fallacy in rules lawyering to assume that "because it doesn't say I cant do it means I can do it."

**Squash**

Most of my contextualised frame of reference comes from tabletop pen and paper games, in Dungeons and Dragons, World of Darkness, Shadowrun, Champions, GURPS, Unisystem and Deadlands throwing weapon properties apply in both close combat and ranged attacks. Leaving context and entering concept, I didn't understand why an axe does more damage when it's thrown at something instead of hacked into something. And then through ratiocination I couldn't figure out where the division between missile and close combat weapon was made (which is where Lehnsherr helped me out and directed me to the 'Ranged' property description).

Does that answer your question Leith?

**Lehnsherr**

I figured that is where you were taking your frame of reference from Squash. Hence my "for the sake of completeness" to try to help with some of the logical inconsistancies.

I'm happy to help!

**Stoopkid**

Squash, I'm sorry but I don't think you understood anything I was saying. I was trying to tell you that a ranged weapon is just that, a ranged weapon. I was not asking you if you could CC with a rifle in real-life... I was asking you if you could CC with a rifle in Warhammer, which obviously, you cannot. And I was posting anything I could find on the matter of throwing axes being used in CC, which those few things I quoted were the only things I could find.

For some odd reason you are acting like I was being an donkey-cave, when I was obviously not.

lol.. donkey-cave...

**Lordhat**

I posit that you can indeed use ranged weapons in CC, otherwise the following errata makes no sense:

Ogre Kingdoms FAQ wrote:
Page 39 – Maneaters, Brace of Handguns profile
Add “Extra Attack, Quick To Fire”. Ignore “Pistol” and the
last sentence in the paragraph after the profile.

Emphasis mine.

**nosferatu1001**

Nope. It's called "maneaters treat them as a pistol", and you CAN use pistols in close combat

**Lordhat**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nope. It's called "maneaters treat them as a pistol", and you CAN use pistols in close combat

That's funny, because the errata I just posted removes ALL referece to to the pistol rule, both from the profile and the rule text.

**nosferatu1001**

Yes, and?

The REASON why they gain an extra attack is because they treat them as pistols.

This just simplifies the rules text by removing the requirement for you to refer back to pistols and then find that a brace gives you an extra attack.

It doesnt mean you can use throwing axes in close combat

**Lehnsherr**

The general rule for weapons useable in close combat is located on pg. under the heading Range as I pointed out earlier.

Specific rules may override this general rule. In the case of pistols, look on page 91. "Unlike other weapons, a pistol can be used as both a missile weapon and a close combat weapon, following the same rules as an additional hand weapon." Emphasis mine.

You would need to provide a specific rule for any other range weapon to override the general rule listed on 89. Pistols have such a rule, throwing axes do not.

**Warpsolution**

Lehnsherr's got this one down, everyone. Rules-wise and logic-wise.

@Squash: I get what you were saying; you have an axe in your hand. You throw it at someone. Now, you have another axe, and someone charges at you. You cut them with it.
Pretty simple.

@Stoopkid & Nosferatu: aside from the rules that Lordhat posted, it makes perfect sense to use a ranged weapon in close combat. Just not as a ranged weapon. You can club a guy with your rifle stock, but it won't be S4 with AP.

Another possibility I'd consider is that throwing axes are meant for throwing, and their balance would be off in combat, thus denying their +1 S bonus.

Anyway, like I said, Lehnsherr's pretty much solved this mystery, so I think we can all go home now.

**Squash**

...We already went home. We were home, enjoying FRIENDS reruns and eating reheated pasta. This got solved way back in the days when Stoopkid was being a donkey-cave. (What's a donkey-cave?)

**Warpsolution**

...Huh. Didn't even bother to look at the dates. It was near the top of the threads list on my compy, so I figured it was new.

So...yes. Disregard me. This time. Unless you don't want to. And please, by all means, go back to your sitcoms and linguine.

**Squash**

awwwkward