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I have been running crimson fists for the longest while (before that raven guard) and end up spamming veterans, and have never used, or seen the use, for librarians. They are vulnerable, have no decent weaponry, and the usefulness of their psych attacks seem few and far between. For movement issues, instead of throwing a 100+ point model out there, why not get a rhino, which gives added protection? And for their vortex of doom or whatever (pardon me on this post guys, forgot my codex at a friends house), it just seems like you MIGHT me able to use this once before getting decimated, yet probably will be decimated on the way to your target, or accidentally kill yourself in the process. And that brings me to another point, librarian tests seem so taboo, as if they are something people don’t even mention; as, to me, they seem to outweigh any good this character may have, but the chances the character has no effectively use any of it's powers seem to be no greater than failing a test. Anyway, I would love it if you guys could open my eyes to the usefulness (and maybe even give me an exact scenario I could use with my mech/veteran list ) as that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks all!
-Darkmarine

In before Null Zone Libbies.

Immature but point made. Everybody (on here at least) loves the Null Zone power on a vanilla Librarian.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:In before Null Zone Libbies.

Immature but point made. Everybody (on here at least) loves the Null Zone power on a vanilla Librarian.

Pardon? I cannot interpret your first (and most important [the one where you show me that vanilla librarians are good]) sentence.

Edit: Due to me thinking the word "sentence" has an "a" in it.

Sorry, the first sentence is a more... grammatically correct version of "inb4 ...". Point is this probably will be the best reason to take a Vanilla SM Librarian. Null Zone (on here at least) is considered well worth a Librarians points if used right and pulled off when you need it. Because it's forcing a reroll of invun saves, and because so many armies have invun saves ( good ones at that), it increases the chance of you killing those horrible units that have so many invun saves. In that sense, a unit the Librarian is attatched to becomes much more dangerous against tougher units.

Being frank Libbys have 2 rolls
1) spam their own powers which normally are good ways to knock down enemies strength (null zone), or just plain good at killing (chain lighning SW)

2) block the enemy from using their powers. Not been doomed by a farseer? lucky you.

Also the teleport spell is very cool. Combine it with locator beakons and around you go.

Also, the libby costs very little.

In a game this past week someone at my game store shut down 2 Jaws of the Wolrd Wolfs against his termies and a Living Lightning with his Librarian. In a world of SW lists that spam Rune Priests even more than mine do, the ability to shut down psychic powers is very important.

Yeah, the librarian in most lists is simply because other non-SC HQ choices for marines are pretty bad. The captain on a bike is ok, and some lists have uses for Chaplains, but generally speaking they end up costing too much for their use.

A libby at 100 points can throw down a great flamer template, has a power weapon, the useful Null Zone power and can block the opponents psychic powers 1/3 of the time. Seems like a deal compared to the other options at 100 points.

Vanilla Marine Librarians are support units that fill an HQ slot. They are not meant to be a one man powerhouse of destruction. They provide support to a squad by making invulnerable saves less of a problem (null zone) Providing manuverability (gate), and negating other psychic powers (hood). Put all of these together and you have a great support unit for almost any squad. True their survivability leaves a lot to be desired, but that can be kept in a Rhino or Razorback with a combat squad.

Magister187 wrote:Yeah, the librarian in most lists is simply because other non-SC HQ choices for marines are pretty bad. The captain on a bike is ok, and some lists have uses for Chaplains, but generally speaking they end up costing too much for their use.

A libby at 100 points can throw down a great flamer template, has a power weapon, the useful Null Zone power and can block the opponents psychic powers 1/3 of the time. Seems like a deal compared to the other options at 100 points.

power weapon? Force weapon. Kill your first MC and you realise how good that is.

Tri wrote:

Magister187 wrote:Yeah, the librarian in most lists is simply because other non-SC HQ choices for marines are pretty bad. The captain on a bike is ok, and some lists have uses for Chaplains, but generally speaking they end up costing too much for their use.

A libby at 100 points can throw down a great flamer template, has a power weapon, the useful Null Zone power and can block the opponents psychic powers 1/3 of the time. Seems like a deal compared to the other options at 100 points.

power weapon? Force weapon. Kill your first MC and you realise how good that is.

I will let hammernators do the MC killing and the libbies do the supporting.

(Btw, last time I tried to force weapon a Trygon. I charged with Zeke, in a unit with the DW Banner, hit 4 times didn't wound and died. I was incredibly mad that I didn't just Hellfire instead. I got gibbed on the swing back and the hammernators he was with finished off that trygon, the tervigon I had multi-assaulted, 2 Hive Guard and landed 4 wounds on a second trygon)

Long story short. I no longer rely on a Force Weapon to take down MC's.

I'v always been trying to use my captain and chaplain models in my lists over my librarians as they look so cool.. but the librarian so soooo good for its points. I play against eldar, an army that relies heavily on its psychic support. The librarians hood by itself is well worth its points to nulify other psychic powers.

Also, if your playing a SM army like blood angels, you get FnP and FC bubbles which make ur librarians FW str5, making it that much better to instant kill high toughness creatures.

I also compare the librarian with another HQ. Lets say you pit a captain vs a librarian. After having to pay an additional +15 points for a power weapon on the captain, if you don't kill the librarian in the first round of combat, and he puts a wound on you, your dead!

Magister187 ... So it didn't hurt him, It still cause you're opponent to allocate attacks to your Lib rather then your terminators. Point is a LIbby is an all-rounder that can boost your own units and do damage himself.

Librarians are cheap as chips, that's a big reason why people use em -- leaves more points for the efficient choices. I mean outside of special characters do you really get all that much cc ability out of a captain, chaplain, Master of the forge or chapter master? I'd say not really. Its all about what they give to the army as a whole nad librarians do quite a bit.

For one they provide a major benefit to the army (the hood) and their powers have some very situational uses but most are quite usefull. Nullzone gives you an edge against the elite armies, gate gives you some redeployment options, aveneger is a great power for clearing objectives. The rest are kinda meh compared to those three but have their uses and builds they can work in (eg force barrier on some sternguard, terminator armor and vortex of doom, etc).

Now the force weapon is just a nice bit of icing but you have the right idea -- its rare a librarian is going to do much in cc. But at 100 points you can't expect all the other buffs and a cc killer too. Let the terminators and dreads do your heavy cc work and have the librarian support them with a nullzone or whatnot. But if you want a cc librarian its possible -- take terminator armor, storm sheild, epistolary upgrade, nullzone and might of the ancients. The 2 wounds for the points is probably the biggest drawback but in a unit of TH/SS terminators this guy can be a real beater. The epistolary upgrade lets you run a S6 force weapon or a nullzone boosted force weapon or S6 and nullzone against eternal warrior daemons and the like or single wounders with inv saves like terminators, wyches, etc.

It is a cheap HQ choice that has a great number of uses.

Personally, I like the null zone, gate combination (usually with assault termies). This gives you psyker defense as well and gate is nice if you land raider gets blown up or immobilized on turn 1. You can still hop across the table. In addition, you can also have him port by himself to contest an objective late game (get out of LOS but near that unit of grots)

Null zone wrecks things that are traditionally a bit of a pain for space marines such as daemons and eldar bike councils.

It's not the only choice, but it certainly is a decent one (the others aren't bad either, honestly).

Because Space Marines return books late too.

Okay, I am tempted though not convinced that i could use a Libby with a Jump Pack to reinforce a 10man Assault Squad with Null Zone to stop those INV saves on those nasty big units. With 2 wounds he would go down in CC pretty quick, but if he got the jump (pardon the pun) with the squad he should be able to butcher them, plus I could drop GOI for something else? Am I missing an obvious weakness, other than 2 wounds?

mwnciboo wrote: Am I missing an obvious weakness, other than 2 wounds?

Librarians aren't very good in HtH. They're the weakest of the SM characters in assault.

No invulnerable save, they're still initiative 4, and unless you use up one of their powers for added assault ability, they have no rerolls and are still trying to wound with str4. They're slightly better in combat than a sergeant with a power weapon in most cases--okay against basic troops in a pinch, but will die most of the time against real assault troops or anything with a power fist (and can be picked out because of being ICs).

Librarians are really support characters. Sometimes they can polish off the last two guys in a unit or survive a couple of rounds against basic troops, but basically they're better off avoiding combat.

mwnciboo wrote: Am I missing an obvious weakness, other than 2 wounds?

Not a weakness a strength. Disengage your Lib and have him join another close unit if you don't think he'll survive the combat.

Personal set up. Epi, terminator armour with storm shield 190pts. Attach to stern guard in DP. Arrive turn one null zone rapid fire. Next turn gate and repeat with the next unit. When in combat he's fairly safe with a 2+/3++ .

(note Vs nids i take might of ancients over null zone. Hitting MC at str6 is always satisfying. Killed Tervigon this way and it was funny watching all the guants pop before they got to attack ... very lucky rolling but happens)

If you don't want to spend a ton of points on HQs, a librarian is a good choice. HQs tend to come in 3 flavors: Beatsticks like chaplains and captains, FOC unlocks like special characters and Master of the Forge, or utility like the librarian.

Personally I don't really care for beatstick characters, they tend to creep up on the 200 point level, which then it is just better to buy 5 assault termies... The FOC unlocks aren't bad, if you are going for a themed or gimmicky list, or just want more options (and are willing to pay the tax for it). I prefer the force multiplying power of the Librarian. LD 10 hood, the amazing null zone (which you don't always need, but when you do...) and decent 2nd powers. All in a nice neat 100 point package. Heck give him termie armor and storm shield and he is still efficient at 140 (and can make better use out of vortex of doom).

Notabot has it right.

Many of the other options for the HQ do not provide a force multiplier. C:SM has cheap TH/SS terminators, and multiplying their effectiveness will turn a good unit into a great unit. Add to that either Avenger or Vortex of Doom, and you have a character that can throw in some extra PW attacks in CC, make the terminators better against tough targets, or put out the hurt in the shooting phase.

The beatstick characters like chaplains and captains are inferior than simply spending those points on TH/SS terminators. Unlocking units like the command squad (a good place to spam special shooting weapons) or bike armies is the best way to use the captain.

Special characters get expensive, and if you don't want the style of army they impose then the librarian offers a strong incentive to skip them.

Null zone librarian with "feth you area"
Hammernators
Vulkan

Beat anything in the game in close combat.

Personally, against the armies in my local gaming club, I'd honestly prefer a null zone librarian over a rune priest in my SW army. 2 terminator heavy armies with a lot of storm shields, and daemons, along with a couple others. I really really wish I could deny invulns.

I run a Lib in TDA w/ SS, epistolary, null and might with 6 ATermies insides a LRC that just so happens to usually contain cassius(most underpriced char ever), on top of a techmarine with TH. Now the techmarine seems out of place but when they get into combat, and they almost always do as my list is gunline with 2 rifledreads 2 preds 3 razors 2 speeders and devs so pick your poison, I've got 3 independent characters and 6 termies for declaring shenanigans against whatever I assault. As a whole between the entire squad sans the LRC is only 525 which isn't a whole lot for what it's packing. Oh and blocking eldrad alone which 2 people at my FLGS run is extremely satisfying. I feel bad when playing my daemon friends so I don't take null except vs one guy in team apoc games I don't like him so I take my normal lib and tigurius and try to focus on his end of the board with a drop pod army.