IG tank design

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**FourCartridge**

I recently had a conversation with someone who modeled minis of military tanks, saying he liked their realist looks in comparison to my Leman Russ tanks. I countered by saying I like their design and looks. This got me thinking: What's Dakka's opinion on the matter?

**stompydakka**

I voted OK.
They look too similar to modern tanks (IMHO) to exist 38 millennia from now.

**FourCartridge**

They look more like they came out of WWI to me.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Most of the Imperial tanks were based on existing WWI and some WWII (mostly Forge World) tanks, so saying they dont look realistic is somewhat laughable (although the Leman Russ is incredibly cramped for a tank, or a vehicle of any sort). Personally I like their style. The Leman Russ is not something subtle, it's not a speed demon or a pinpoint shooter. It's a brutal beast that crushes whatever's too slow or stupid enough to get out of the way, either by a cannon shell to the face or under it's treads. Given that the IG are the Hammer of the Emperor, this brutality is perfect for the vehicle.

**cpt_fishcakes**

I voted What was GW smoking when they made these?

I like the WWI retro look but a lot of the design choices are a bit silly. Rhinos with 4 exhausts and doors all over the place, Leman Russ with turrets way to small for the battle cannon. Theres hardly room for the guns breach never mind any crew or a way to load the thing.

Over all I have always liked the designs but they could do with being re-done by some one who has actually seen a tank, even if it was just on TV once

**Vaktathi**

I liked the older chimera, the new turret just looks...fuddly.

The newer Leman Russ was a step in the right direction, but I really wish they had done a full revisualization like they did with the Rhino and Predator in 2002/2003. It's still got a turret that's way too small for a gun+breach and room for crew, and a hull that's way too small for the turret. Better, but still silly.

The Bassy is what it is, it looks fine, though GW missed a great opportunity to include the other artillery variants.

**Ailaros**

Fore more reading, consult this thread.

Basically, when they created the guard models in the first place, they took a mishmash of lots of different sources of inspiration, from jules verne (just look at the old cadians), to rambo, to modern armor, to the mongol horde.

Then, for whatever reason, for their heavy tanks, they chose as their inspiration the time when tanks were their absolute UGLIEST, and then redid them to make NO sense whatsoever (if you actually produced a leman russ according to the modelling specs, you'd have a vehicle that can't shoot any weapons, is easily destroyable, and can't navigate a driveway, much less a battle field).

Unfortunately, this one awful decision has reverberated through the years, and they've been unable to seriously alter the look of the tank. Even forgeworld struggles to make the russ look like an actual piece of armor, much less good. You will notice, on the other hand, that when forgeworld got free reign in designing their own vehicles, they actually look not only realistic, but good.

Not to say a reasonable vehicle can't be made out of the russ box, but not if you follow the assembly instructions.

**GalacticDefender**

I think they look awesome, except the turret should be a bit bigger.

**Emperors Faithful**

I don't mind it at all really. Sure, the turret is a bit small for the main battlecannon, but it's by no means the awful contraption Ailaros is painting it out to be.

**matterofpride**

I am a huge fan of them and was one of the selling points for me as far as picking the army. They do have a very very distinct WWI-II feel which I really like.

I think the guard has the general feel of hmm they are just human? Soldiers and there guns and there rigid tanks in a world full of smooth curved alien high tech.

I see how people think they are ugly but I think that adds to it.

Stack it up next to a falcon and hammerhead which were made with allot of fluidity and grace. Then you have the Leman Russ made of metal blood and sweat. It doesn't need to be graceful or fast it just needs to work.

If they did do a big change something to more WWII would be alright but if they took it even slightly towards even the feel of an abrams tank I think it would ruin the feel of guard.

I can understand the whole size issue be we all know that 40k doesnt not at all scale well with itself.. Just look at a rhino next to ten marines or a landraider and some termis...and well you get the idea.. We all have to deal with some suspended belief one way or another when it comes to 40k. Be it the models or the rules themselves.

And to add to Ailaros's comment. The only issue I see with men actually fitting in there is as someone said above me the turret is a bit to small. But as far as the engine/drive/gunners there is enuff room. They would be smashed in there WWI style but they would fit. Given that I am sure the Russ has a much much better engine under the hood I am sure it would far well moving over the battlefield. As good as a modern tank? I doubt it. But I am sure it could keep up with if not do better then your m4 sherman or the panzer/tiger which really isnt terrible.

**Vaktathi**

With regards to the turret, there isn't enough room for a breach and armor, much less the hatch being where the breach should be, or room for a loader, gunner, commander, equipment and ammo for what looks to be a 400mm cannon

The hull is too small as well, there's insufficient room for turret ring, engine, ammo storage, engine and up to 4 additional crew members (driver, hull gunner, two sponson gunners).

The tank is just too small in all respects for what it is. If it were a 3man crew with a small 37mm cannon in a one man turret, with a driver and hull gunner it might work, but as it is, its just way too small.

**Scrazza**

IMO, they look a bit meh. They were allright in their previous incarnation, but the new leman rus turrets just look lame. I prefer the old ones. GW shouldn't have made those new turrets. Whenerver I see one of those old leman russes, I wont think twice to buy them.

**Ensis Ferrae**

I think they look fairly good. The thing i always keep in mind is that the vehicles are not truly to scale. The way the models are scaled now, there would be no way the Leman Russ could fire, thered be no way it could hold more than 1 round of its main gun ammunition. Because there being a lack of obvious room in there, i doubt you could the the supposed crew of 5 in there, along with the engine and all the computers, etc.

for what they are supposed to be though, i think they look fine, we all know that GW has some scaling issues with their models as a whole.

**Yak9UT**

I don't mind the Russ build.

I do love the design of the Baneblade, Stormlord and Malcador builds.

They look really good I particulay like the Stormlord build as it look like the Jager tanks from WW2.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/218596-2/DSCN7624

http://www.battletanks.com/images/Jagdpanzer_Kanone-3.jpeg

**Scott-S6**

I think the russ looks like a caricature of a WW1/2 tank. It's way too high and turret is much too small for the gun.

The FW Mars Alpha hull with a Ryza pattern turret is okay, though.

**Ailaros**

matterofpride wrote:It doesn't need to be graceful or fast it just needs to work.

That's actually one of my biggest complaints about it - there's no way a tank designed that way would actually work. It's top-heavy, front-heavy, wider than it is long with the sponsons, no suspension, and with a hull that goes right up to the tracks in front, guaranteeing that it would, in reality, get snagged on every piece of terrain more difficult than a motorway.

And that's before you consider the other gaping flaws, like tread circuits that are way too huge, with non-sloping armor, and a ludicrously high profile all of which make the tank much more easy to destroy. And that's before we start talking about low sponsons and turret size reminiscent of a clown car.

It's like, they went through and picked up on all of the mistakes in tank design that were corrected over WWII and included them all on purpose in their design for a russ. If the tank was actually practical, I could possibly see past its ugliness, but as it is, it's not "ugly but efficient", it's "ugly and unworkable".

**chaos0xomega**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Most of the Imperial tanks were based on existing WWI and some WWII (mostly Forge World) tanks, so saying they dont look realistic is somewhat laughable (although the Leman Russ is incredibly cramped for a tank, or a vehicle of any sort). Personally I like their style. The Leman Russ is not something subtle, it's not a speed demon or a pinpoint shooter. It's a brutal beast that crushes whatever's too slow or stupid enough to get out of the way, either by a cannon shell to the face or under it's treads. Given that the IG are the Hammer of the Emperor, this brutality is perfect for the vehicle.

No they don't look realistic for a lot of reasons. For one thing, they aren't long enough (and their weight is distributed too far forward) to cross a trench. They have no suspension meaning they can't clear terrain (and can't crush anything too slow or stupid enough to get out of the way). The recoil from the cannon would kill whoever is in the turret when it fires (meaning if anyone is occupying the hatch, theyre pretty well and away dead). You can't physically fit enough ammunition into the vehicle to fire a reasonable number of shots through the cannon, plus the hull mount, plus two sponsons. Its armor isn't angled, meaning that it offers inferior protection. Its also way too tall a design, making it easier to engage at longer ranges and harder to hide.

I'm all for the retro futuristic designs, but I think GW went too far in the retro direction, and then managed to mess it up. I prefer to have a certain level of realism to my sci-fi. There is suspension of disbelief, and then there is pure fantasy. I might be tooting my own horn, but I think GW could have successfully evoked the WW1 design while making a tank that looks fairly modern. For an example of my own attempt to do this, check out the link in my sig (yes, I'm tooting my own horn), page 3 has the most up-to-date images of my design of a retro styled tank.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Alot of old tanks from WW1 and some from WW2 possessed the same boxy profile as well as flat armor. Go look up some pics. Sloped armor was really innovative and didnt come until quite a bit after tanks were introduced. Modern tanks have better construction, but the first ever Mark1 basically just wanted a rolling box that could get troops across no-man's land without turning into swiss cheese, as well as put some guns on it.

However I do agree with you on the turret, given how it fires in DoW it would bisect anyone standing in it. Loading it would be the same as loading a conventional cannon given the design (which is horribly inefficient, not to mention dangerous to the crewmember for the aforementioned reason) if it could be conceivably loaded like the way we imagine it.

**chaos0xomega**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Alot of old tanks from WW1 and some from WW2 possessed the same boxy profile as well as flat armor. Go look up some pics. Sloped armor was really innovative and didnt come until quite a bit after tanks were introduced. Modern tanks have better construction, but the first ever Mark1 basically just wanted a rolling box that could get troops across no-man's land without turning into swiss cheese, as well as put some guns on it.

Yeah, but this is the far flung future where people are running around with railguns, etc. Sloped armor was a design evolution required to keep up with the increased efficiency of anti-tank weapons, and would be just as relevant in the 41st Millennium as it is today. The Leman Russ is described as a Main Battle Tank. They Imperium clearly wants something more than a rolling box that can get troops across no-man's land without turning into swiss cheese. I suppose, theoretically, that the ability of anti-tank weaponry to destroy vehicles may have outstripped the ability of armor to suitably defend against it, and they have just abandoned the concept entirely, but given the in-game statlines, etc. I would say this is not the case.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Hence why I specifically mentioned they were based off of WW1 and 2 designs. It's more for the aesthetics than for actual fluff reasons. If it's actually accurate to the timeline, even with the Adeptus Mechanicus's hoarding of knowledge, the tanks would look similar to that of the Tau.

**Gavo**

Now, the Baneblade, on the other hand...

But yeah, the LR has an outdated model.

**stompydakka**

FourCartridge wrote:They look more like they came out of WWI to me.

When I said modern I meant about this time. We are talking about a 38000 year difference between now and the 40k world, so I figured you could have now encompass 1900s.
My bad for not clarifying

**Ailaros**

Also, I think that people's assertion that "they're from WWI" are a bit strange. You're actually looking at a picture of a WWI tank when you say that, right?

If GW did use WWI tanks as inspiration, then they were VERY loosely inspired by them.

**chaos0xomega**

Considering that after World War 1, no tank in service anywhere that I know of had a tread configuration like that in the picture shown or sponsons, I would say they are very much inspired by them. Both are major design characteristics shared by both the Leman Russ and the British tank in that image.

**FourCartridge**

In fact, if you put a battle-cannon turret on a mark 1, you could have an early version of the Leman Russ. But I'm not talking just about this tank in particular. What do you guys think about the design of the Chimera, Baneblade, and Hellhound?

**MechaEmperor7000**

Ailaros, the two pics you showed are actually very much alike (the overall wedged shape and boxy side sponsons). Alot of people have commented that the Leman russ is little more than a Mark1 with a turret attached to it.

However you do have a point in that it's a caricature of the tank. It's very "chibified" in size and almost like they took the tank in photoshop and contracted it. It's probably why half the systems, if made to specs, would not work in the tank, due to how they've squished it. However, given that in this universe the head and hands are so large compared to the body, this is an acceptable break from realitly for rule of cool.

**mrsmith**

i couldn't care less if it actually could work or how practical they would be. it just has to look cool. GW tanks look cool. mission accomplished.

everything in the game is a caricature of something else, so thats cool too.

**VikingScott**

I think it looks cool.
The leman Russ is good.
and I love artillery.

**chaos0xomega**

FourCartridge wrote:In fact, if you put a battle-cannon turret on a mark 1, you could have an early version of the Leman Russ. But I'm not talking just about this tank in particular. What do you guys think about the design of the Chimera, Baneblade, and Hellhound?

Chimera is a bit more believable, its also got a more modern design to it. The Hellhound is really just a derivative of the Chimera, but with fuel tanks.

The Baneblade though, is rather interesting. Its definitely inspired by some of the inter-war/world war 2 superheavy tanks that featured multiple turrets etc. I actually like the appearance, as its much more plausible than the Leman Russ.

**Vaktathi**

Indeed, the Baneblade is actually probably the best designed tank of the entire range with sloping armor and a believable suspension/road wheels/etc, however still has a turret that's too small for its cannon, aside from simply being impractically huge for a tank on a battlefield.