Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

hey, me and a friend a pretty new to 40k but have recently played a game with what we see as a strange outcome and we would like some opinions on this.
My 500 point Ork army (which i found on the internet to use as i have not yet created my own army) is:

-21 shoota boyz, 2 big shoota, nob pk bp
-21 shoota boyz, 2 big shoota, nob pk bp
-3 killa kanz grotzooka

and this was against my friends 500 point space marine army:

- Captain with Plasma Pistol and Power Weapon
- 9 Space Marines
- 9 Space Marines
-Dreadnought with Smoke Launchers

we played on a 4x4, terrain being made up to give the outnumbered space marines an advantage, with a hill to use as a shooting point and cover on the right and a sandbag bunker to shoot from (we agreed the sandbags give +2 save if in line of sight) as well as some trees scattered around, aimed to use for the orks to break line of sight from long distance firing.

What i am curious about is why the orks took less than 10% troops losses when the space marines got completely destroyed? is the Ork army actually worth more than 500 points? is the space marine army purely an underdog?
comments are appreciated so that we can adjust this scenario and play again.

thanks - rhys

I believe this is an acute case of bad dice rolls.


More likely, it's just a lack of understanding of your own and each others' forces and how to use them. Honestly, there is no reason your friend should be taking 9-man tactical squads. That way he can't take any special weapons, which is stupid.

what would you suggest then? i thought that the space marines being outnumbered - although stronger, were the underdogs - hence the terrains advantage to them.
however there wernt much bad luck on the dice. he killed one of my killa kans, although if i wasnt lucky on rolling for glances against his dreadnought he may of taking done more, or a stack of troops, however apart from that, i dnt feel the dice made a big difference.

how, i am wondering - Ork Boys shootas - they have attack of 2, meaning x2 shot for each troop, meaning 21 boyz roll 42 dice.. HOWEVER there weapon - shoota - is assault 2, so does that mean one squad of 21 boyz gets 84 dice rolls?

thanks

rhys

(p.s - ignore private message now)

The "A" stat is for melee not shooting. The shoota is "Assault 2" which means you get 2 shooting attacks.

21 shoota boyz means 42 shots, hitting on a 5+ which should be close to 14 hits, then he saves.

No offense or anything, but perhaps each of you should read over the rules again before you play?

Aye, it took me about three months to digest most of the basic rules (ie, playing not with too many in-depth rules and without too many rules cock-ups). Honestly, the best way to learn is to just keep on playing.

For your first dozen games or so, I'd suggest just playing with Pitched Battle deployment and with the Annihilation mission type. Simple, fun and will help you all learn quickly.

It is somewhat humbling when, whilst we're all on here talking about tournament-winning lists and deathstar units, then a few people just beginning turn up. , we were all raw once.

But one thing to make sure of is that you PLAN out your army so you don't waste money - GW eats cash like humans eat rainforests; no care, no stop and their only thought is of how they can increase income, especially from ten-year-olds.

To plan out your force, think about what units you find appealing, then try and make an army list - that is, list each unit, its wargear and upgrades and add up their points costs so that they equal a certain limit. I would suggest making a 1500 point list, then posting it in the 40k army list section here on Dakka. You will get a great deal of advice that way, believe me.

Also, you will want to go to 40k general discussion and start a thread to get as much solid advice as you can for your two armies. I could go on forever on that point, but I need to refrain from off-topicness as much as possible, and I have other things to do.


Tips for getting tips, that's a new one I think.

thanks doctor optimal, we just played another game and that worked better (although he used a different army), and darkvoid you are deffo right, as that was our 3rd game we just played and compared to our first we have learnt so much. Learnt how tanks are supposed to be destroyed properly in that last one as well, blew up 7 of my boyz because i rolled a 6 when penetrating a dreadnought

also, that last game that we played was on the computer (we were at our own houses), on a programme called VASSAL. i dont know if you ever heard of it but it is a very good replica, as if it was tabletop, and is amazing if you wish to try out different armies, seeing how they work etc as you do not need to buy the models to use them. it is all free... if you want to know more about VASSAL private message me and i can help.

this way we would also be able to play together over a computer.

thanks

rhys

I do indeed already have vassal 40k, but I haven't used it in a long time.

SM are really outclassed by hordes in lower point games. They can simply be defeated by volume of fire, and they can't get the shiny toys because they need to fulfill the 1HQ, 2 troop first, which eats up a lot of points.

You also should consider that you were playing an illegal list with no ork HQ. this would take up about 85-100 pts. Meaning either less boys or less kans.

Sorry just noticed starsdawn said similar

In small-point games armies which are reliant upon small, elite, specialized units (such as any Space marine army, Eldar, Necrons, for example) are generally out-performed by horde lists or armies which have the option of running smaller squads or less expensive units (Tyranids, Orks, Imperial Guard, possibly Tau, for example).

As Starsdawn said, they can't afford to get any of the cool stuff which makes them competitive in larger games, especially vehicles.

Also, if something doesn't feel right about whatever action it is that you're making, don't be afraid to double-check the rules to make sure you're doing it right. The rules are intuitive after some practice on most things... But not all things. It'll make sure that you reinforce the proper play-style, and it will help prevent you from discouraging your friend if you run a train through his army by accidentally cheating.

hey, since i last spoke on here i have played two 500 point game (using the legal standard game army, HQ + 2 troops).
also we played a 1000 point game with armies we worked out ourselves, remembering the army list rules.
these games were very interesting, we have learnt soo much now and think we are capable of playing a full fledged game as most rules are now in our heads.

we are about to create 1500 point armies, although trying a different team, as he wants to use someone different (although i can't remember who he said) and i am going to attempt a 1500 point tyranid army, but if this does not work out for me i will build another with ork as i know them now.
if anyone can post a 1500 point army list within the next couple hours that would be very helpful if it is decent.

and if anyone wants to play with me on vassal then add my skype - wunder.world

thanks

rhys

Dude, Tyranid's really are a hard race to play at the minute. GW screwed them over so badly, and for a new player, it'll be really hard to use them I think, unless your opponent is utterly incompetent.

However, Nids are fun . You need to make sure not to get carried away on the expensive stuff. Just make a thread asking for a good 1.5k list.. you'll get plenty of results.

ok ill leave the tyranids, i didnt think they seemed very easy tbh.
i will most likely stay orks for a while....
thanks

I use nids last night against martin and we fought to a draw but had it gone another turn nids would of won. Those MC's are hard to kill.

Not really. JottWW are death for monstrous creatures, so is massed plasma vets in Chimeras in a mechvet list, or lots of air cav lascannons in IG also.

TH/SS Terminators are beast against them as well. Lysander as well.

Anything AP2/3 with high strength, or high strength, invulnerable save-toting assault units will kill MCs easily.

snazzy wrote:In small-point games armies which are reliant upon small, elite, specialized units (such as any Space marine army, Eldar, Necrons, for example) are generally out-performed by horde lists or armies which have the option of running smaller squads or less expensive units (Tyranids, Orks, Imperial Guard, possibly Tau, for example).

As Starsdawn said, they can't afford to get any of the cool stuff which makes them competitive in larger games, especially vehicles.

Also, if something doesn't feel right about whatever action it is that you're making, don't be afraid to double-check the rules to make sure you're doing it right. The rules are intuitive after some practice on most things... But not all things. It'll make sure that you reinforce the proper play-style, and it will help prevent you from discouraging your friend if you run a train through his army by accidentally cheating.

Eldar actually can do quite well at low point games. The reason being is that they aren't stuck paying 16+ points per troop model and can take an HQ for very few points. This in addition to the fact that war walkers are disgustingly cost effective gun platforms (40 points for 6 s6 shots? yes pls), and wave serpents are painfully difficult for other races to take down, makes Eldar able to field a very solid army at low point games.

Where things start getting nasty, as you said, are for MEQ and Necrons. Expensive HQ + expensive base troops, means they can't bring nearly as much to the table in a 500 point game. I played a 500 point game against space marines with a quick Eldar list, and it wasn't even fair. The next day I played against a 500 point ork list. That one was a nail biter, and I ultimately only won because my storm guardians held against his biker boss and my Farseer managed to charge in and kill it with his singing spear in close combat.

The best space marines can do in low point games is to take a cheap commander, and 2 min troop squads in razor backs (and I think aspiring cham-I mean Sarges with combi weapons, or something similar). Vehicles are very strong in lower point games, as they are tougher for the enemy to take out- especially orks.

Basically, the higher your model count and the inclusion of tanks in low-point games drastically increases your chances of victory.

rhys uren wrote:
we played on a 4x4, terrain being made up to give the outnumbered space marines an advantage,

I don't know if you should neccesarily give the marines the tactical advantage. While your list was illegal, and his not played right (9 man tac squad?), you shouldn't give armies an advantage right out the gate. Give them an even playing field, and the dice will sort themselves out.