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so recently a friend of mine had a warhammer fantasy match, and this came up: i brought a unit of ungors right next to his cold ones chariot, about on the same line eight inches or so away, right next to the edge of the table, technically, in the old rules (which we ended up using), the front arc showed the LOS, and thereby the chariot would not have seen me. in the current rules, the LOS rule is apparently if you can draw a line from the eyes to the major body of the enemy. if the line was perpendicular to the face, then no, the rear driver would not have been able to have seen the ungors anyway. yet, when we were disscussing this rule later, we figured that technically, the neck of a model could be turned in order to see more. in theory then, my beastmen gors (which i made their necks face different ways partially so that they fix and partially to make them look rowdier) would see more than his spearmen, who were mainly facing forwards. and we were also confused on what exactly entailed "a line from the eyes." continuing on yet more confusions, seeing as the fantasy world is, well, fantasy, couldnt it be argued that some creatures, like skeletons or demons, turn their head in every which direction having no neck muscles or logical explanation, respectively? also, couldnt it be argued or counter-argued that in the case of steeds and riders, that both would have to, or only the rider have to be accounted for to check line of sight? this has really confused us, and we would welcome any house rules, reasoning, and so on. thanks!

Your LOS is limited by your front arc AND being able to actually see the enemy within that front arc

Also - PLEASE use paragraphs and some form of capitalisation. I stopped reading half way through as it was indecipherable.

Could I get some guidance as to how LoS is actually limited to the front arc? I haven't seen anything to support that and would like to know where it is as it makes no sense that a model can't look over it's own shoulder. The shooting rules specifically mention you need frontal arc and LoS, which would be redundant if LoS is limited to the frontal arc.

I would just like to see some conclusive proof one way or another. Put bluntly, pg 10 is severely lacking on being actually descriptive.

Hey im the player he mentioned.

In the rule book it says nothing about arcs and have no diagrams on arcs, only thing on arcs i found was charge zones, and shooting. It was rather confusing, and does a lone model have 360 degree LOS? If you have a page reference besides 10 (which wasn't helpful at all) that would be great thanks!

Well, here's the deal.
Line of sight is simply a straight line from the eyes of a model (in a 360 degree view if you want.)
The problem is that it won't do you much good as *drumwhirl* pretty much every single thing that you want to do (charging, shooting, magic missiling and so on) also require you to have the target in your front arc. This goes for every model, single or in a unit.

EDIT: Also, on arcs...p.5 (Unit facings)

Davalli - how is it redundant to require both?

You have a house directly in front of you, meaning the unit is in your front arc but, as they're just behind the house you cant see them - no LOS, no charge / shooting, etc.

That is why you need to have BOTH LOS *and* front arc.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Davalli - how is it redundant to require both?

You have a house directly in front of you, meaning the unit is in your front arc but, as they're just behind the house you cant see them - no LOS, no charge / shooting, etc.

That is why you need to have BOTH LOS *and* front arc.

If LoS is contained solely within the front arc, just saying you need LoS would also require it to be the front arc. Hence saying both (instead of just LoS) is redundant. Now, if LoS isn't contained within the front arc, it is needed to say both.

I couldn't read the first post either, so I am going off limited information. I guess I should ask if people are thinking LoS is contained within the front arc or if it is 360?

Well you have been helpful too me thank you. Last question of mine was, does a lone model like a chariot or monster/ character have 360 los and not matter where his front arc is?

Not unless their rules explicitly state so. CHariots have never had 360 LOS, and even skirmishers have lost it for now.

The only one left that has 360 ark of LOS is the screaming bell seer, unless there's someone else i'm forgetting.

Davail - there are two separate requirements:

Front Arc
LOS

You need to specify both are required otherwise, as my example shows, you can meet one requirement (in front arc) but not meet the other.

Stating "LOS is only to your front arc" is not required, and could cause problems with unique units

I am still confused, I guess I should try to read the first post again, but I am not sure I want the headache

To me, there is nothing to support LoS is in the front arc. If you do the model eye view, that is easily 180 degrees instead of the 90 the front arc provides. I just wish pg 10 would have gone through the effort to give one or two visual answers for a visual problem (like the cover rules did).

Stating LoS and front arc (if LoS is contained within the front arc) as separate requirements seems pointless. Why not be concise and combine the two if it's the case? You could only meet one without the other (being in the front arc but not LoS, aka being blocked by a building) as it is impossible to have LoS without being in the front arc. That assumes the two actually work that way. Any "unique" models that have an issue with that could have their own rules within their book/FAQ.

I am not sure if I am describing my contention correctly, but I guess I just can't find any solid evidence that LoS is contained within a 90 degree arc to the front of a model.

The only thing I think I can help clarify for you, is the rules for charging and shooting.

By clarifying these rules, you may then see how LoS is limited by the front arc for most gaming purposes.

Pg. 36 Last paragraph under the subheading "Declare Charge"

"When you declare a charge, one or more of the models in your unit must be able to trace a line of sight to the enemy unit, and the target must lie at least partially within the charging unit's front arc." (emphasis mine)

If the unit you wish to charge is not partially in your front arc, you may not charge it.

Shooting:

Page 39 heading "Choose a target" subheading "Check that the shooter can see the target"

"Firstly, the target enemy unit must lie at least partially within the shooting model's forward arc" (emphasis mine)

However you wish to interpret the LoS - Frontal arc issue, you still require the target to be within your front arc for most gaming purposes. Rules that break that usually outline how they do so. For example, many spells do not require line of sight, and so may be cast at any unit regardless of their position to your casting model.

**Edit**
As for the LoS being solely contained within the 90 degree arc, there is nothing specific that outlines either one. It could be argued that line of sight and frontal arc are two separate things, or that frontal arc is the limit to your line of sight, and then obstacles may still block line of sight, hence the requirement that you have line of sight even if the target is within frontal arc.

I am at a loss however to think of a circumstance where this might matter. Could you elaborate on when this might become an issue?

Right, I am not questioning the front arc is required for shooting and charging, just that LoS is contained within the frontal arc. Needing both to happen (LoS and frontal arc) does not automatically mean they lie within the same spacial boundary, however.

I can only think of a few things where LoS actually impacts anything outside of a frontal arc (WoC -ld banner, Waywatchers scouting, some old spells), it's more of an exercise of completeness.

Now that I think about it, there are several items that this would impact. Its definately worth reading through the BRB again to see.

Also note, for the sake of the headache that will follow, that if you are using the rules in the book strictly for line of sight, that those rules specify tracing the line of sight from the model's eyes.

Not only will this mean that your modeling and positioning on the base will affect line of sight (since you are literally tracing from the model's eyes), but that models without eyes (skeletons, etc) can never have line of sight. Models with non-visible eyes (full face helmets, etc). will never have line of sight. Models with eyestalks modeled will have better line of sight. Models wearing goggles have no line of sight, because there is no actual eye on the model to trace line of sight to.


Basically, the "trace line of sight from the model's eyes" rule is much better interpreted as a guideline, because if you use it literally as written, it completely screws up certain things.

"So, recently a friend of mine and me had a Warhammer Fantasy match, and this came up: I brought a unit of Ungors right next to his Cold Ones Chariot, about on the same line, eight inches or so away, right next to the edge of the table. Technically, in the old rules (which we ended up using), the front arc showed the line of sight, and thereby the chariot would not have seen me. In the current rules, the line of sight rule is, apparently, if you can draw a line from the eyes to the major body of the enemy, then you can see the model. If the line had to be perpendicular to the face, then no, the rear driver would not have been able to have seen the Ungors anyway. Yet, when we were disscussing this rule later, we figured that technically, the neck of models in a unit could be turned in multiple direction, thus increasing the area that the unit itself could see. In theory then, my Beastmen Gors (which I made their necks face different ways partially so that the heads fit, and partially to make them look rowdier) would be able to see more than his Spearmen, who were mainly facing forwards. We were also confused on what exactly entailed "a line from the eyes." Continuing on yet more confusions, seeing as the Fantasy world is, well, fantasy, couldn't it be argued that some creatures, like Skeletons or Demons, turn their head in every which direction having no neck muscles or logical explanation, respectively? Also, couldn't it be argued, or counter-argued, that in the case of steeds and riders, that both would have to, or only the rider have to be accounted for, to check line of sight? This has really confused us, and we would welcome any house rules, reasoning, and so on. Thanks!" Sorry all, I apologize.

Simply put could it would be like this:

In 99,99% of the cases it doesn't MATTER if units have 360 degrees worth of LoS. As you still need to be in the front arc.
In the few times that it matters (a few items, some random spells and a special character or two) then you might want to work it out with the oppponent.

By RaW I think it's 360 (draw a line is all that is said, not HOW to do that...) but I think many (including me) play it as the front arc as per the last edition(s).

Aaaargh!!!...
The wall of text it BURNS MY EYES!!!

Agreed.

Waaaghpwnage: In the future, I'd suggest breaking your post up into paragraphs. The lack of capitalization is one thing, and thanks for repairing that (...though you can also click "edit" at the bottom right of your post and fix it up there), but it's still hard to read.

@Da Butcha: your comment spurred me to this point: as Warhammer is played with plastic models-that is to say, inanimate pieces of synthetic material-that not a one of them has actual eyes, defined as "an organ of vision or sensitivity to light". Just another bump of plastic you happen to have painted to resemble an eye.
...so yeah. We draw the line from eye-equivalents now.

The TK Casket only requires LoS, so if only one of your Halberiders, Marauders or Clanrats is modelled to look to the side, or if you assume that models have 360° LoS to avoid the "no eyes" problem (or that Goblin rider who sits reversed), then the Casket can be quite problematic.

Since there is no explicit rule that says 360°, I tend to go with LoS = approximate line from eye equivalent to target. It's still far from a perfect solution, as even the slightest change of angle can lead to different results.

*Opens army book*
The catapult really doesn't ignore the front arc rule for stone throwers. The CASKET on the other hand is a completely different beast.
The problem is, as stated before, that GW only wrote "draw a line". Personally I think that an "approximate line" is, like you said, far from perfect. It's slightly too subjective for my taste.
Our gaming group has housed-ruled it to be LoS = Front arc, but that is also far from perfect. (Mostly due to lack of hard rules...)

Ah, slip of mind. The Casket is what I meant.