Switch Theme:

Basing advice requested: good looking water  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Hollerin' Herda with Squighound Pack






I'm looking for advice about doing nice-looking water on bases. I have a bunch of questions, but to start out, here's a test mini I did:




Please ignore the nasty paint job on the termagant, he got roped into base-testing duty on account of his ugliness. What I want to do is base all my orks with a kind of creek theme--uneven ground with rivulets and pools of water. On this mini, I built up the creek sides with Liquitex modeling paste (which is frustrating to work with but can be kind of nice) with some flock and static grass on top, and did the water with Liquitex Natural Sand gel mixed with P3 green ink and topped with a lot of gloss varnish. I tried another one with blue ink in the gel, over a base painted with mithril silver, but it's still drying so I don't know how it'll look. (The stuff goes on white but dries clear.)

So here are my questions:

1) How to I get water that's both cool-looking and at least mildly realistic-looking? I think this is pretty, but it's so green it looks more like slime than water. The gel stuff I'm using dries transparent and mixes well with ink. Would it make more sense to paint a blue or green undercoat and leave the gel uncolored? Should I totally avoid blue and green and just do the clear gel over a brown or gray undercoat?

2) Does getting a little of the "water" on the feet look good, or does it just look messy?

3) Is it a dumb idea to use water on all/most of the bases in an army? Will it look excessive when there's dozens of orks all in their own little water puddles or creeks?


   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





Binghamton, NY

That test model is absolutely fantastic... except for the color. As you mentioned, the tinting is WAY too strong. Reminds me of toilet bowl cleaners. If these are supposed to be little creeks, they're going to be shallow - the foot not sinking below the water suggests this - so you'd be seeing the bed more than anything. I'd try a base using the plain gel over a brown basecoat.

I'm rather torn on question 3, though. It's such a cool basing scheme, but it might get a bit tiresome. I'd try perhaps mixing things up a bit, as if the army was in an area of wetlands. Some can have pools, some streams, some grass, some mud - as long as you keep to the same palette, you should be able to have a variety of bases that still add up to a coherent look (e.g. on a muddier base, be sure to add a touch of that static grass, to tie it in with the other bases).

The Dreadnote wrote:But the Emperor already has a shrine, in the form of your local Games Workshop. You honour him by sacrificing your money to the plastic effigies of his warriors. In time, your devotion will be rewarded with the gift of having even more effigies to worship.
 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




San Diego Ca

I think they look perfect (even the ugly mini is at least tabletop quality).
In the grim darkness their is no clean water. Hives and Forges dump tons pollutents into the waterways daily. The EPA and Greenpeace were declared Diobolis and Exterminatus was carried out in the 32nd millenium. And just imagine what the Orks dump into the water.
You base is perfect for that.

Life isn't fair. But wouldn't it be worse if Life were fair, and all of the really terrible things that happen to us were because we deserved them?
M. Cole.
 
   
Made in us
Krazy Grot Kutta Driva





United States

#2 in my personal opinion I would rather not see that.

#3 I think it would look fine as long as you work some rocks\cat tails into some of the bases as well.

I have done the blue painting of waterway bottoms for railroad ponds before and then filled with a clear epoxy. I'm not sure the small base's and the banks you have built up would allow enough depth for that sort of effect to be pulled off convincingly. Do another test base but tint using something other than Green Ink.

Poor orks... Why can't they be the good guys for once?
All they've ever really wanted is whatever you have...
 
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor






My house

The water looks great.
If you are looking for clear water, then yes, too much tint. But how many planets have clear water??
The water on the foot looks like exactly that, nice detail and looks good.
A whole army? Would look nice but are you going to hit burnout before completion (but then again some could be on the banks too.)

Overall, it looks good. I like it.

Dennis
Damnant quod non intelegunt

"Sometimes at the most basic level, to be alive you must stop other people being alive. This is what we do. We are extremely good at it"
"It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous."
-from Prospero Burns
 
   
Made in us
Hollerin' Herda with Squighound Pack






Thanks for the feedback and encouraging words everybody!

Toilet bowl cleaner, ha ha--that's exactly it! Thinking of it as reeking polluted ork-water totally makes sense, but I guess I've gotten kind of attached to the idea of a "natural" look for these...also, I feel like with the otherwise naturalistic look of the bases, a reasonable reaction to the green water would be "Um, dude, have you ever actually seen water in person, or just in cartoons?" I'll do one test with untinted gel over dark brown, and one with a little brown ink in the gel. I was thinking about some streaks of light brown to try for a sort of sun-dappled creekbed effect, but we'll see how it goes. I'll update the thread when I do them.

Since I think the green water is super pretty, I might also do another test one using green water, but with pavement and rubble instead of dirt, for a ruined-city-awash-in-toxic-sludge look. Pavement is a lot harder than hills, though

Oadie, doing a more general "wetlands" theme instead of all water is a fantastic idea, and I think that's what I'll do. It won't look so excessive on the table, and it'll probably be more fun to put together. This'll definitely be a fairly demanding basing scheme (not really difficult, but time consuming), but I'm pretty excited about it. I'm thinking I'll come up with a "palette" not just of colors but of five or six design elements--mud, water, green flock, maybe rocks or reeds--and make sure every base has at least three of them, but not the same three on all.

Vandil, you mentioned cattails--have you ever made them yourself? Do you have any tips? I tried twirling a bit of wire in flock, but it looked really poor.

   
Made in us
Hollerin' Herda with Squighound Pack






Update: did a test model with brown, but not especially happy with it. Pics:






The water on this and the earlier is Liquitex Natural Sand gel, covered with a lot of gloss varnish. For the brown, I first tried the sand gel untinted over a medium brown, but it looked pretty bad. This gel does not dry perfectly clear, and it looked a little milky. So when I added the gloss varnish layer, I tinted it with a very small amount of P3 brown ink.

Overall, I think it's....meh. I think at bottom I'm using the wrong tool for the water--I should get something that dries perfectly clear and very gloss. Then I can have another go at doing it over a brown undercoat. I was thinking of picking up some of this stuff: http://www.dickblick.com/products/liquitex-gel-mediums/ (the gloss medium), but I'm not sure it would really be too different from the varnish with the thickness I'm using. On model train sites I've read about putting Future floor polish over gel gloss medium to get a real shine on water, has anyone tried that?

I might try toning down the tint on the green and going with that, and maybe introducing some metal-junk elements to sort of telegraph that it's polluted water. I ordered some of the cheapo Gale Force Nine 40mm bases, and I'm thinking I'll try a bunch of variations on those without putting models on them for now (I'm running out of badly-painted termagants!)

On a side note: my least favorite part of this hobby is trying to make static grass stand up, and my second least favorite part is trying to get static grass out of all the places I don't want it to be. I don't know why I don't give up and go all-flock.

Anyway, advice, comments, or criticism very welcome

   
Made in us
Hollerin' Herda with Squighound Pack






Got some new materials. This base was an experiment (or a bunch of experiments at once), moderately successful in some respects and rotten in others, but fun to do.





First, I got a pint of econo-bases from Gale Force Nine that should last me about forever. They're perfectly nice, some kind of pressboard, and smell pleasantly like a campfire. They need to be wiped thoroughly or they get char all over your hands, but I'm happy with them.

Second, I decided that I needed to try some kind of untextured water effect. I was interested in the Vallejo Transparent Water, and since I'm cheap and I didn't want to wait for something to arrive in the mail, went looking at Vallejo's corporate site to see if I could find out what kind of substance it actually is and buy a cheaper substitute. I was interested to see that Vallejo actually makes a full range of art supplies, not just stuff for hobbyists. I came away with the clear impression that the Transparent Water effect is very likely relabeled gloss gel medium, and headed to the local Blick (this is a U.S. art supply chain) to pick some up. I got the Liquitex brand, since I've been happy with everything else in their line. I was interested to see that it's not actually much (if any) less expensive than Vallejo Transparent Water--Vallejo doesn't seem to be doing the usual hobbyist markup with this product, at least.

Third, I got some Super Sculpey, and figured the easiest test sculpt is a tentacle.

Fourth, I kept hearing about "magic wash" and Future floor polish, and decided I had to have some.

It all came together on this base. I think it looks okay, but I'm not sure it's obvious what it's supposed to be. The idea is that it's swampy water with algae scum floating on it, and a tentacle that just rose up out of the water through a patch of algae. If that's what it looks like, great! If that's not what it looks like, let me know. I find it tough to look at something with an objective eye right after finishing it, since I know what it was supposed to look like.

Anyway, a lot of lessons here. I tried the gloss gel medium over paint (not pictured), and found that it really does seem to be the same or similar to Transparent Water--though I've only seen Transparent Water in pictures, so I can't say for sure. It dries very clear and very glossy. It also didn't seem to shrink very much. However, it's also sort of a mayonnaise texture that holds brush strokes, so while it's easy to get a rough water effect, relatively smooth water is harder. I tried it over some brown and green paint stippled in random patterns. This might have looked okay if the gel was less clear, but in practivce it looked like clear water sitting on some crappy stippling.

So I decided I should tint it. I tried to be more subdued, but I was using so little of the stuff that even a tiny amount of ink made it really dark. I thought I would do a couple of layers with decreasing tint, so over a base of brown and green stippling, did one of mixed brown and green (turned into just dark green, not the swampy look I wanted), the next of just brown, the last of just green. The only one that didn't turn out super dark was the last one, which I tinted by dipping a toothpick in a tiny drop of ink, brushing off the toothpick, and using the toothpick to stir the little dollop of gel I'd spooned only the palate. Overall, doing to this much trouble was a waste of time for the effect accomplished--one layer of brown-tinted gel would have looked the same, I think.

Since I wanted it to look relatively still, I diluted the gel heavily with water, until it became pourable. Surface tension let me pour this mix from the palate onto the base, and it looked really good at first. However...

1) While it doesn't shrink when undiluted, it shrinks a LOT when it's half water. After a day it had really shrunk away from the tentacle and to a lesser extent the rock, and where the mix was uneven there were some hollow spots. There were also weird little white inclusions under the surface where I hadn't stirred the gel and water together enough, though these faded with time.
2) It totally attacked the paint and possibly even the body of the tentacle. You can see a little crack at the bottom of the tentacle in one of the pictures--that wasn't there before I applied the gel.
3) Any bubbles in the original pour turned into little divots when it was dry. On the last pour I minimized this by stirring really slowly and popping the bubbles I could see, but it's far from perfect.
4) Leaving it a little thicker on the last pour meant that it didn't spread out as much as I expected on the final layer, and dried in little hills on one spot, which looked awful.

2) and 4) made me look for some way of covering the bad spots, and I decided to try pond scum/algae. I put some green flock (woodland scenics I think, but I poured it into a ziploc when i bought it and threw away the original packaging so I'm not sure--just normal green flock, anyway, fine-shredded rubber of some sort) over the lumpy part with Elmer's glue (this is an inexpensive U.S. brand of PVA glue) and around and on top of the tentacle, leaving a blank part that's supposed to be where the tentacle came up through the water. When it dried, I covered it with Liquitex gloss varnish in a thick layer (just the algae). This clumps it down and makes it look like wet scum rather than low grass. Finally, I covered all the algae, the water, and the tentacle with Future polsh, undiluted.

I really like the Future polish, which leaves a wonderful shine, much better than the gloss varnish. However, it seems to take off the paint (or at least the wash on the tentacle) a little bit--next time I use it I'll let the paint/wash dry for a couple of days first, and maybe dab it on rather than brushing.

Anyway, there it is. I think it looks decent for what it is, though the water still isn't what I want--too opaque--and getting it smooth is going to be a pain. Suggestions are extremely welcome. I learned a lot doing this one, and even though it's way too elaborate to base actual models, I'll definitely be using the algae here and there, and the gloss gel medium is definitely the best water effect I've tried so far. I might try painting the flock with Scorpion Green before applying the varnish, as I think it looks too much like tasty pesto as is.

I also learned that Sculpey is not good for really delicate stuff--nice to work with and easy to cure, with no time limit on working with it, but it's pretty brittle when it's hard. You can carve it but you need to be really careful and I don't think you can do more than shaving off big areas. The tip of the tentacle also broke of just being brushed with a finger, though it doesn't look too bad.












Automatically Appended Next Post:
One additional thing that I can't figure out and would like advice about. The edge of the base for some reason really ruins any illusion of depth. What can I do about that? When basing models I'm probably not going to have many cases where a whole lot of water runs right to the edge, but if you're doing an all-water base, how to you make it look like something other than a tiny bit of water sitting on top of a solid mass? Would painting the edges gray or something help?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/03/13 08:59:33


 
   
Made in au
Rifleman Grey Knight Venerable Dreadnought




Realm of Hobby

Motortree wrote:Got some new materials. This base was an experiment (or a bunch of experiments at once), moderately successful in some respects and rotten in others, but fun to do.






This little guy would look perfect on that...



OT: Im presently searching for Aussie suppliers for everything you have mentioned thus far...


MikZor wrote:
We can't help that american D&D is pretty much daily life for us (Aussies)

Walking to shops, "i'll take a short cut through this bush", random encounter! Lizard with no legs.....
I kid Since i avoid bushlands that is
But we're not that bad... are we?
 
   
Made in us
Hollerin' Herda with Squighound Pack






Ha ha, that little guy is adorable! Hmm, a grot standing on a riverbank might be fun...

AvatarForm, I looked at some Australian sites with art supplies and I was really shocked--you guys pay a lot more over there than we do here! The cheapest I saw for the Liquitex gel medium and gel effects was twice what I pay here (even factoring in the exchange rate). Do you live in a big city? It might be worthwhile to find a brick and mortar art supply store and see what they have. I doubt the brand makes a huge difference if it's the same basic category of material.
   
Made in gb
Noble of the Alter Kindred




United Kingdom

Have heard of Acrylic Gloss Gell being used but not seen any results

Future floor polish is good stuff.
Makes a good gloss varnish and helps with decalling.

Looking good in the photos. Would you say that the Gloss Gel is the way to go?

 
   
 
Forum Index » Painting & Modeling
Go to: